Kyrie to Boston rumors heating up. Deal nearly complete

[DJ]

Dwight Howard and Whiteside should be on that list over Drummond and Turner. Even if you think Dwight is underachieving he's still better at least at this point than Drummond. Whiteside has a better track record also thus far than Turner.

Wiggy won't ever give Whiteside credit.

 

[DJ]

Who are the best big men in the East?

1. Embiid
2. Love
3. Porzingis
4. Drummond
5. Turner

???

 

[The Oldtimer]

He may have been previously, but his defense has eroded considerably. Just like Rondo used to be a good defender, he's fallen off too. Just because at one point you may or may not have been a good defender does not change what you currently are. Klay was a horrendous defender out of college and in his first two years in the league. He worked his ass off to get to where he's at today. Draymond wasn't known as a defender out of college either.

Okay fair enough, but my original post was that Westbrook is both a better offensive and defensive player than Kyrie. Wiggy was calling Kyrie the best offensive player in the NBA.

 

[CitySushi]

Okay fair enough, but my original post was that Westbrook is both a better offensive and defensive player than Kyrie. Wiggy was calling Kyrie the best offensive player in the NBA.

Defensively...yeah I guess that's accurate. Offensively, that's debatable though, imo. But I do agree Kyrie is not the best offensive player in the NBA. Plenty of other guys that I would consider over him. Scoring-wise though, he might be the best.

 

[tlance]

This was from two years ago, but Russell Westbrook is a very good defensive player. That was one of the reasons that OKC drafted him out of UCLA.

"In what has been the best year of Russell Westbrook‘s career, the Oklahoma City Guard continues to receive accolades for his accomplishments both on- and off-the-court. The NBA’s All-Defensive teams were announced on Wednesday afternoon but Westbrook was not included in either the first or second. Instead, he received 35 total points and fell just shy of being named one of the top four defensive guards in the NBA".

Well,

I don't think you will find very many people here who think Westbrook is a good defensive player. He gambles a lot so he gets steals. That often leads to defensive team votes from media who don't know what the hell they are doing.

Westbrook is an athlete. But he shirks defensive responsibility to hunt defensive rebounds and he plays lazy on that end. He is not a great defensive player, but He certainly could be if he tried harder and stayed disciplined.

 

[tlance]

Okay fair enough, but my original post was that Westbrook is both a better offensive and defensive player than Kyrie. Wiggy was calling Kyrie the best offensive player in the NBA.

Definitely better defensively than Kyrie. That I agree with.

 

[The Oldtimer]

Well,

I don't think you will find very many people here who think Westbrook is a good defensive player. He gambles a lot so he gets steals. That often leads to defensive team votes from media who don't know what the hell they are doing.

Westbrook is an athlete. But he shirks defensive responsibility to hunt defensive rebounds and he plays lazy on that end. He is not a great defensive player, but He certainly could be if he tried harder and stayed disciplined.

Fair enough, I know he was a very good defensive player at UCLA and one of the top defensive guards a couple of years ago.

 

[The Oldtimer]

Definitely better defensively than Kyrie. That I agree with.

And offensively too.

 

[The Oldtimer]

Defensively...yeah I guess that's accurate. Offensively, that's debatable though, imo. But I do agree Kyrie is not the best offensive player in the NBA. Plenty of other guys that I would consider over him. Scoring-wise though, he might be the best.

Better than Westbrook "scoring-wise"?

 

[The Oldtimer]

But, like a lot of superstars.....they stop giving as much effort on defense.....it's taxing going both ways 100%.

Yeah good point.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Another benefit of this Kyrie trade for the Cavs... the Cavs are now allowed to move their own 2018 pick.

but if they move their own pick does that preclude them from trading the Brooklyn pick?

 

[tlance]

I still think RW is good on defense but not as good as few seasons ago, primarily because the effort isn't always there.

Sure.

But, effort and positioning are by far the two most important things on the defensive end. If effort isn't there, that player won't be a good defender.

 

[WiggyRuss]

i just really think these LeBron comments are dumb---- i mean- I would never burn a jersey- but LeBron--- you play a game. A game. You get paid millions of dollars for it. You get paid millions of dollars becauuse fans spend money on it.

The fans can do whatever they want. Fans dont HAVE to be logical. Do you really take it personally when some Cleveland fan booed you for leaving? Its a game that you get paid millions of dollars to play. You have no ground upon which to chastise the fans for any kind of behavior. They pay your fucking salary. Some liquored up Celtics fans burned a jersey- it represents a minute minority of the fans. But who cares? - whos to tell them what they can and cant do? they dont like like Isiah anymore. He is going to play a GAME- and is now on the Celtics biggest rival.

And if you leave LeBron- you are gonna get booed again. You will be the enemy. There is no two ways about it. You arent going to be loved and fawned over. Its just how it is. You play a game- and if you play for the other side you are gonna get ripped- its just how it is....grow up and deal with it.

 

[tlance]

Better than Westbrook "scoring-wise"?

Definitely.

Westbrook scores so much because he is a volume shooter.

 

[The Q]

I agree with all of this.

I also think that the ranking of a team's second best player may be higher in the modern era. If superstars continue to partner up, it is going to be awful tough for "normal" teams to win. That is a relatively new development in terms of NBA history.

I just looked and just to give a baseline, the 2nd best player was as good as Hayward's projected season in that same 538 article exactly twice since Lebron went to Miami.

2011 (2.8) and 2016 (3.2), while Hayward is 3.8.

Next closest is Green in 2015 at 4.4. Which would be 11th this year according to the article's numbers.

FWIW he also would've been better than Gasol during the 09 and the completely fraudulent 2010 Lakers run. (3.6 and 3.7 for Gasol those years).

So yeah it's a step down, but not impossible. The difference in 2016 was Lebron was ridiculous.

But finding another Dirk is doable. Actually Butler faired better than Dirk. Had they been able to get Butler and land Hayward, that's a starting point for championship star power.

 

[The Oldtimer]

Definitely.

Westbrook scores so much because he is a volume shooter.

What? You didn't say anything about "volume shooter". We were talking about "scoring points", (scoring-wise) not about how many shots a player takes. Westbrook is a better offensive player than Kyrie.

 

[tlance]

What? You didn't say anything about "volume shooter". We were talking about "scoring points", (scoring-wise) not about how many shots a player takes.

Huh? That is implied in these discussions. Anybody can look up the scoring leaders list. The guy at the top isn't always the best scorer.

Westbrook lead the league in scoring. he is Far from the best scorer.

There are many players who score a lot of points and do it more efficiently than Russ. KD and Kyrie are both examples. Neither had anywhere near the opportunity to shoot that Russ did.

 

[The Oldtimer]

Huh? That is implied in these discussions. Anybody can look up the scoring leaders list. The guy at the top isn't always the best scorer.

Westbrook lead the league in scoring. he is Far from the best scorer.

There are many players who score a lot of points and do it more efficiently than Russ. KD and Kyrie are both examples. Neither had anywhere near the opportunity to shoot that Russ did.

Fair enough, you have your opinion and I have mine. Let's just move on.

 

[tlance]

I just looked and just to give a baseline, the 2nd best player was as good as Hayward's projected season in that same 538 article exactly twice since Lebron went to Miami.

2011 (2.8) and 2016 (3.2), while Hayward is 3.8.

Next closest is Green in 2015 at 4.4. Which would be 11th this year according to the article's numbers.

FWIW he also would've been better than Gasol during the 09 and the completely fraudulent 2010 Lakers run. (3.6 and 3.7 for Gasol those years).

So yeah it's a step down, but not impossible. The difference in 2016 was Lebron was ridiculous.

But finding another Dirk is doable. Actually Butler faired better than Dirk. Had they been able to get Butler and land Hayward, that's a starting point for championship star power.

Intersting.

In 2011 and 2016, the winner was a definite upset. Dallas over Miami's "super team" in 2011, and Cleveland over the 73 win Warriors in '16. 2015 was the only Finals played since LeBron went to Miami without at least 1 legit super team. GS wasn't there yet and Cleveland, whether labeled Super or not, were playing without Kyrie and Love.

 

[The Q]

Intersting.

In 2011 and 2016, the winner was a definite upset. Dallas over Miami's "super team" in 2011, and Cleveland over the 73 win Warriors in '16. 2015 was the only Finals played since LeBron went to Miami without at least 1 legit super team. GS wasn't there yet and Cleveland, whether labeled Super or not, were playing without Kyrie and Love.

Yeah, but the big difference in GS was having guys put up an 8 or a 9.9 like Curry did in 2015.

This past year the Dubs were 8.3/6.7/3.7 for KD/Steph/Green.