What is LeBron's legacy if he loses 5 times in the finals?

[trojanfan12]

Individual greatness is too often attributed to team results IMO. You can't grab any other player in the league, throw them on a team, and immediately that team will be finals contenders like you can with LeBron.

All-time rankings is purely speculative, so I guess it doesn't really matter what metrics you use. I just hope he can deliver at least 1 championship to Cleveland. If any city deserves one, its that town.

That's why, although I do participate in them, I don't put a lot of stock in GOAT conversations. Too many variables.

Imo, Kareem is the GOAT. But, because of the position he played, he didn't really have a lot of control over how much he got the ball.

Is a guy like MJ better or more valuable to a team with his scoring than a guy like Magic with his assists? End of the day though, these conversations always come back to rings. It's how the all-time greats separate themselves from one another, so it tends to be the same with everyone else in these types of conversations.

That one more ring is why Magic himself defers to MJ as GOAT, even though a very, very strong case can be made for Magic.

 

[Tharvot]

That's why, although I do participate in them, I don't put a lot of stock in GOAT conversations. Too many variables.

Imo, Kareem is the GOAT. But, because of the position he played, he didn't really have a lot of control over how much he got the ball.

Is a guy like MJ better or more valuable to a team with his scoring than a guy like Magic with his assists? End of the day though, these conversations always come back to rings. It's how the all-time greats separate themselves from one another, so it tends to be the same with everyone else in these types of conversations.

Agreed on that.

Plus with the way the game has evolved, it's impossible to compare players of one generation to the next...though the skyhook would still be as unstoppable now as it was then.

 

[trojanfan12]

Agreed on that.

Plus with the way the game has evolved, it's impossible to compare players of one generation to the next...though the skyhook would still be as unstoppable now as it was then.

Yeah, there have been so many changes in the game. Not just rules changes, but how the players prepare, travel, advances in training and medicine all get factored in.

Agree about the skyhook and really don't understand why players, especially centers, don't use it. It's as close to an unblockable shot as there is.

 

[The Q]

Hard to blame kelly for a game when the D gave up 50 points.

The Giants will be the 2011 Mavericks to Kelly's career.

If they called the actual rules of the game Shaq would've been the hands down GOAT because there would've never been a guy over 6'5 to guard him after halftime.

 

[The Q]

Yeah, there have been so many changes in the game. Not just rules changes, but how the players prepare, travel, advances in training and medicine all get factored in.

Agree about the skyhook and really don't understand why players, especially centers, don't use it. It's as close to an unblockable shot as there is.

It's switched to the baby hook, which is more accurate and almost as unblockable.

 

[ChrisGar15]

The "makes other players better" stuff is pretty flawed. Some guys, like Magic, Steve Nash, Lebron when he got decent talent around him, etc. make other players better by how they include their teammates in the game and getting them the ball when they are in the best position to do something with it.

Others, like Kobe, MJ, Steph, etc. make their teammates better just by being on the floor and demanding so much attention from the opponent that it left their teammates with opportunities to do things they otherwise may not be able to.

Bottom line, virtually all great players make the players around them better, it's just a matter of how they go about doing it.

I disagree with some of this. MJ was a gunner for the first 5-6 years. He was criticized that he didn't make players around him better (unlike Magic & Bird). It wasn't until Phil Jackson got there that they came together as a team. For example, Horace Grant was known as having stone hands and MJ did not have confidence in him at all. Phil convinced him that he truly had to trust Grant for them to become a better team. (according to both Phil & MJ)

Another way to look at it -- players quit working on offense if the alpha dog is just going to dribble out the shot clock, then shoot it. That type of player will clearly frustrate other players who will just start standing & watching.

 

[trojanfan12]

I disagree with some of this. MJ was a gunner for the first 5-6 years. He was criticized that he didn't make players around him better (unlike Magic & Bird). It wasn't until Phil Jackson got there that they came together as a team. For example, Horace Grant was known as having stone hands and MJ did not have confidence in him at all. Phil convinced him that he truly had to trust Grant for them to become a better team. (according to both Phil & MJ)

Another way to look at it -- players quit working on offense if the alpha dog is just going to dribble out the shot clock, then shoot it. That type of player will clearly frustrate other players who will just start standing & watching.

All gunners go through that to some degree. Kobe has gone through it a couple of times in his career when he had lesser talent around him. But end of the day, gunners make their teammates better just by being on the floor and demanding defensive attention.

The difference, imo, between gunners like MJ and Kobe who have won rings and guys like 'Melo who hasn't, is that MJ and Kobe learned to trust their teammates and would give the ball up sometimes and not bitch when another guy was open and got the shot (unless he missed lol).

The emergence of Pippen and trusting some of his teammates more made his teams champions, but his biggest contributions to their games came from his presence on the floor and the fact that he could never be left alone and often had to be double or triple teamed. Jackson just convinced him to give up the ball once in awhile.

I remember his first championship against the Lakers. Paxson killed the Lakers because they kept doubling MJ with Byron Scott giving Paxson wide open looks. If MJ didn't demand so much attention defensively, Paxson isn't getting those looks.

 

[LAD]

Individual greatness is too often attributed to team results IMO. You can't grab any other player in the league, throw them on a team, and immediately that team will be finals contenders like you can with LeBron.

How do we even know this is true with LBJ? I mean he's only played for 2 teams and in doing so has a losing record when he gets to the Finals. And, 4 of those seasons he had more than adequate help in Miami.

While I do think he's a great player I also think saying he would make ANY team an immediate contender is a bit far fetched. Clearly there are a lot of people that agree, since the Cavs weren't the favorites last season & probably not this season either.

 

[lebron23james]

I don't remember other greats making the finals every other year of their career

How do we even know this is true with LBJ? I mean he's only played for 2 teams and in doing so has a losing record when he gets to the Finals. And, 4 of those seasons he had more than adequate help in Miami.

While I do think he's a great player I also think saying he would make ANY team an immediate contender is a bit far fetched. Clearly there are a lot of people that agree, since the Cavs weren't the favorites last season & probably not this season either.

Cavs went from the lottery to the finals...

Heat went from the finals to the lottery

Can you name any other players that made the finals the following year of a lottery team?

 

[gordontrue]

What if LeBron hadn't gone off in Game 5 against the Pistons in 2007 and the cavs lost the series. What if LeBron had laid an egg against the Bulls in 2011 and Derrick Rose had played like his regular season version of himself and the Bulls won? What if LeBron hadn't dropped 25 points in 3 quarters on the Pacers in game 6 of 2014 and the Pacers had managed a game 7 win? What if the Cavs had crumbled under the loss of Kevin Love and LeBron put up brick after brick and the Hawks took advantage of home court and beat the Cavs?

How would that affect his legacy? Because some of you are unbelievably, laughably, embarrassingly arguing that his legacy would be much better in that case. That those outcomes would leave LeBron with a chance still at being GOAT whereas now he has none. Think about that. How stupid are you??

This has nothing to do with my being a LeBron fan. I don't think LeBron is GOAT - or even close - at this point. I make no excuses for his failures and the failures of his teams. Winning is winning, losing is losing, end of story. In his 12 years, his team has failed 10 times and succeeded twice. I will just never understand the "Finals Loss < Losing before the Finals" argument... no matter who it involves.

 

[The Q]

I don't see how 2007 can be seen as anything but a positive.

That has to be the worst team to the make the championship round in any of the big sports in the modern era.

He dragged them there kicking and screaming.

 

[trojanfan12]

What if LeBron hadn't gone off in Game 5 against the Pistons in 2007 and the cavs lost the series. What if LeBron had laid an egg against the Bulls in 2011 and Derrick Rose had played like his regular season version of himself and the Bulls won? What if LeBron hadn't dropped 25 points in 3 quarters on the Pacers in game 6 of 2014 and the Pacers had managed a game 7 win? What if the Cavs had crumbled under the loss of Kevin Love and LeBron put up brick after brick and the Hawks took advantage of home court and beat the Cavs?

How would that affect his legacy? Because some of you are unbelievably, laughably, embarrassingly arguing that his legacy would be much better in that case. That those outcomes would leave LeBron with a chance still at being GOAT whereas now he has none. Think about that. How stupid are you??

This has nothing to do with my being a LeBron fan. I don't think LeBron is GOAT - or even close - at this point. I make no excuses for his failures and the failures of his teams. Winning is winning, losing is losing, end of story. In his 12 years, his team has failed 10 times and succeeded twice. I will just never understand the "Finals Loss < Losing before the Finals" argument... no matter who it involves.

Facts are facts. Lebron has been to the finals 6 times. 4 of those times, he had the better/favored team. He is 2-4. He should be 4-2.

Also, no one has said anything about him losing before the finals. This is about how he has performed IN the finals. He has come up short, even when he shouldn't.

Compare that to Jordan who made the finals 6 times. Was favored 6 times and won 6 times.

Kobe made the finals 7 times, was favored 6 times and won 5 times.

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't see how 2007 can be seen as anything but a positive.

That has to be the worst team to the make the championship round in any of the big sports in the modern era.

He dragged them there kicking and screaming.

The 1998-99 New York Knicks (8th seed) say Hi.

 

[gordontrue]

View attachment 74435

Facts are facts. Lebron has been to the finals 6 times. 4 of those times, he had the better/favored team. He is 2-4. He should be 4-2.

Also, no one has said anything about him losing before the finals. This is about how he has performed IN the finals. He has come up short, even when he shouldn't.

Compare that to Jordan who made the finals 6 times. Was favored 6 times and won 6 times.

Kobe made the finals 7 times, was favored 6 times and won 5 times.

Yes, those are the facts. I'm not refuting any of that. I'm just refuting the argument that W-L record in the Finals has any merit to anything. I see zero logic in using it.

If you want a W-L record of winning the championship it goes like this...

Lebron is 2 / 12
MJ was 6 / 15
Kobe is 5 / 19
etc...

Why discount the failed seasons of a player just because he didn't make it to the Finals that year? Why include the failed seasons of a player just because they did make it to the Finals? Not only does it not make sense... its counter-intuitive to what does make sense. I just think it is useless at best and misleading at worst.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yes, those are the facts. I'm not refuting any of that. I'm just refuting the argument that W-L record in the Finals has any merit to anything. I see zero logic in using it.

If you want a W-L record of winning the championship it goes like this...

Lebron is 2 / 12
MJ was 6 / 15
Kobe is 5 / 19
etc...

Why discount the failed seasons of a player just because he didn't make it to the Finals that year?

Not only does it not make sense... its counter-intuitive to what does make sense. I just think it is useless at best and misleading at worst.

The rings count has always been the "tiebreaker" for lack of a better term. It's what the greats themselves use. When you look at just pure stats, the difference between the all-time greats is razor thin.

Looking at, for example, power forwards. The difference between the stats of Timmy, Barkley and Malone is essentially negligible. Yet, most consider Timmy the greatest PF of all time. The reason is his ring count. He has 5, Barkley and Malone have zero.

Statistically, there isn't much difference between MJ, Magic, Lebron, etc. So, once again, rings are used as the deciding factor. It's always been this way since the GOAT conversation started. We don't just suddenly eliminate it because it's not favorable to Lebron when it's not being eliminated for anyone else.

Why include the failed seasons of a player just because they did make it to the Finals?

Because you use all of the times they made the finals. For example, Magic made the finals 9 times, his team won 5 times. His 4 finals losses count against him and are the reason he's not considered the GOAT in most cases. The same holds true for Kareem who went to the finals 10 times and lost 4 and Kobe who made the finals 7 times and lost 2. MJ is generally considered the GOAT, in large measure because he made the finals 6 times and won all 6.

Also, even if you eliminate the times they made the finals and lost (focusing solely on finals success) Lebron still only has 2 titles.

 

[gordontrue]

Also, even if you eliminate the times they made the finals and lost (focusing solely on finals success) Lebron still only has 2 titles.

Yep. My argument was never about what makes LeBron look good or bad. Ring count make perfect sense. No problem with that.

IMO, the only reason people care about Finals record is because Jordan happened to go 6 - 0. Now all of a sudden people want to act like that means something. The 6 titles means something. Especially doing it in 6 consecutive (for him, basically) seasons. Incredible. But if Jordan had managed to lead the Bulls to the Finals in 89 or 90 and lost... if he was 6/7 or 6/8 in the Finals... that would make his legacy better, imo. Much better.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yep. My argument was never about what makes LeBron look good or bad. Ring count make perfect sense. No problem with that.

IMO, the only reason people care about Finals record is because Jordan happened to go 6 - 0. Now all of a sudden people want to act like that means something. The 6 titles means something. Especially doing it in 6 consecutive (for him, basically) seasons. Incredible. But if Jordan had managed to lead the Bulls to the Finals in 89 or 90 and lost... if he was 6/7 or 6/8 in the Finals... that would make his legacy better, imo. Much better.

That's where you disagree with most others. The way the GOAT conversation has worked, it would actually drop him a little and make the conversation much more debatable because being 6-0 has always been the MJ trump card. The way you are suggesting would actually serve to elevate Kareem to GOAT since he's 6/10. As a lifelong Lakers fans (and one who considers Kareem the GOAT anyway), I'd have no problem with that.

Unfortunately, that's not what most media and hoops fans think though.

 

[Heatles84]

I don't remember other greats making the finals every other year of their career


Cavs went from the lottery to the finals...

Heat went from the finals to the lottery

Can you name any other players that made the finals the following year of a lottery team?

The Heat were ravaged by injuries last season. This season at the near halfway point, they're the 3rd/4th best team record-wise in the Eastern Conference. This isn't the Cavs who went to a complete embarassment of a team.

 

[tducey]

As an all time great who couldn't get it done in the finals all that often.

 

[WiggyRuss]

The Heat were ravaged by injuries last season. This season at the near halfway point, they're the 3rd/4th best team record-wise in the Eastern Conference. This isn't the Cavs who went to a complete embarassment of a team.

waaaaah!!!

please

a few days ago they were "tied" for 8th in the East. #2 and like #10 are all pretty even in the East....there is little difference between the Celtics, Hawks, Heat, Raptors, Bobcats, Magic, Pacers, Pistons and even the Knicks---I GUESS on talent i would put Chicago at #2 fairly solidly but with DRose's continued injuries i dont even know if thats the case anymore.

to me their probably 3 talent tiers in the East

1. Cavs

2 (and a half) Bulls

3-10- pretty darn equal


the Heat are equally close to the #1 seed (4 games) as they are to the #12 seed in the East- along with a ton of other teams.