What is LeBron's legacy if he loses 5 times in the finals?

[GNG]

Duncan is one of the best to ever play his position

But ive never seen him as a player that could carry a team to the Finals, completely on his shoulders, as Lebron has done a couple of times with Cleveland

So I guess its all how you look at how you measure "Greatest Players"

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[trojanfan12]

MJ invented the six steps and dunk.

Yes he did.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

What about Russell getting 11 championships playing against supremely unskilled players as compared to today's NBA?

Russell was a pioneer as the NBA's first great winner. Cliche maybe, but you have to consider all circumstances. "Unskilled" I think goes much too far.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Depending on what team lebron joined/drafted by his career championships could have been 6, 7+...Def would have changed his legacy, funny how what team you are on can change someones legacy so much.

"Making players better". In his early days LeBron cared too much about endorsements before winning championships that he never really elevated the play of his teammates.

 

[ChrisGar15]

"Making players better". In his early days LeBron cared too much about endorsements before winning championships that he never really elevated the play of his teammates.

Remember how Lebron was criticized in his early years because he would often pass to an open teammate for game winners? (guys like Donyell Marshall) People thought he should take the last shot -- he said he thought he was making the right basketball play.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Remember how Lebron was criticized in his early years because he would often pass to an open teammate for game winners? (guys like Donyell Marshall) People thought he should take the last shot -- he said he thought he was making the right basketball play.

Not quite the point I was making. My point was he dominates possession of the ball too much that other guys the opportunity to create.

 

[LAD]

Oh i dont know about that at all...Lebron has been criticized in the past for being "too unselfish"

I think the 2 Cavs teams he carried to the Finals is a pretty good indicator he was making scrubs like Delonte West and Matthew Delavadova better

His presence alone and the attention he draws defensively makes players around him better by default

Apparently just not good enough to win?

 

[LAD]

I've said it before and its not popular but I'll say it again.

If you think that its better for LeBron's legacy to lose to the Hawks or Pacers or Bulls or Heat or any Eastern conference team than it is to make it to another Finals and go down to the Spurs or Warriors.... I just don't know what to say to you. That logic is so plainly flawed that there's no purpose in explaining why.

What's painfully flawed is how Cavs fans have to include multiple excuses for LBJ's losing record- as it currently stands.
"he lost in the finals, but it's not his fault?" Give me a freaking break. When will people be able to accept that LBJ loses just like every star in this league?

 

[Heatles84]

"Making players better". In his early days LeBron cared too much about endorsements before winning championships that he never really elevated the play of his teammates.

I have to disagree. I like to bag on the guy, but Lebron's not an idiot. He knew he would always be compared to Magic, Jordan, Kobe, etc. And by comparison, he knew the one thing that people would always point out is titles. Lebron as long as I've watched him has always been unselfish with the ball. Rarely does he take it upon himself to do the majority of scoring for his team (although he does have rare freakish scoring games like game 6 vs. Boston in the ECF in 2012).

If you're referring to his early years in Cleveland, then duh. He had no one playing with him. Of course all he would do is score.

 

[Heatles84]

What's painfully flawed is how Cavs fans have to include multiple excuses for LBJ's losing record- as it currently stands.
"he lost in the finals, but it's not his fault?" Give me a freaking break. When will people be able to accept that LBJ loses just like every star in this league?

When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in the '88 Finals, Magic went down in game 1 which set up the series for the Pistons to win it. Last I checked, people don't make excuses for the Lakers for that series.

Hell, Miami went onto its 4th NBA finals in a row in '14 and were fatigued against the Spurs. Do we get a participation trophy for that?

 

[HurricaneDij39]

I have to disagree. I like to bag on the guy, but Lebron's not an idiot. He knew he would always be compared to Magic, Jordan, Kobe, etc. And by comparison, he knew the one thing that people would always point out is titles. Lebron as long as I've watched him has always been unselfish with the ball. Rarely does he take it upon himself to do the majority of scoring for his team (although he does have rare freakish scoring games like game 6 vs. Boston in the ECF in 2012).

If you're referring to his early years in Cleveland, then duh. He had no one playing with him. Of course all he would do is score.

Notice I bolded the "scoring" part of your post. No, he doesn't try to do all the scoring. In the past, though, he has done all the ball-handling, often making his team's offense all too predicable. Other guys need to be given opportunities to create in order to win championships.

 

[Heatles84]

Notice I bolded the "scoring" part of your post. No, he doesn't try to do all the scoring. In the past, though, he has done all the ball-handling, often making his team's offense all too predicable. Other guys need to be given opportunities to create in order to win championships.

I agree. But back in his early playing days, he really didn't have anyone else that was reliable. The best player he played with in Cleveland was Carlos Boozer and Mo Williams. The latter of whom at age 33 can't even sniff the rotation in Cleveland right now.

 

[LAD]

When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in the '88 Finals, Magic went down in game 1 which set up the series for the Pistons to win it. Last I checked, people don't make excuses for the Lakers for that series.

Hell, Miami went onto its 4th NBA finals in a row in '14 and were fatigued against the Spurs. Do we get a participation trophy for that?

Exactly.
Kobe won against the Celtics in '10 and because he had a bad shooting night in game 7 still got talked about as not being "star quality", even though he had something like 18 boards.

Bottom line is each teams' stars get the credit for winning and is the reason they should accept the burden in losses.

 

[LAD]

Notice I bolded the "scoring" part of your post. No, he doesn't try to do all the scoring. In the past, though, he has done all the ball-handling, often making his team's offense all too predicable. Other guys need to be given opportunities to create in order to win championships.

Well I think this rings true for most young stars in the league. They don't realize early on what it will take for them to win. They think because they're the franchise player that means "score" without realizing how much the other things count as well - and how much those things help their teammates.

 

[trojanfan12]

The "makes other players better" stuff is pretty flawed. Some guys, like Magic, Steve Nash, Lebron when he got decent talent around him, etc. make other players better by how they include their teammates in the game and getting them the ball when they are in the best position to do something with it.

Others, like Kobe, MJ, Steph, etc. make their teammates better just by being on the floor and demanding so much attention from the opponent that it left their teammates with opportunities to do things they otherwise may not be able to.

Bottom line, virtually all great players make the players around them better, it's just a matter of how they go about doing it.

 

[The Q]

Exactly.
Kobe won against the Celtics in '10 and because he had a bad shooting night in game 7 still got talked about as not being "star quality", even though he had something like 18 boards.

Bottom line is each teams' stars get the credit for winning and is the reason they should accept the burden in losses.

That game was rigged.

The last 16 minutes of officiating were a flat out travesty.

 

[Tharvot]

If LeBron never wins another title but his teams consistently make the championship, he will still be remembered as one of the all time greats. Probably top 5 all time. Now, if he wins a few more, he will be right up there with Jordan.

There's a bit of Jim Kelly syndrom with stars who lead their teams to their championship games but can't seem to win the big one. If Kelly and the Bills had won those Super Bowls he would be mentioned along Montana as the best of all time.

 

[The Q]

If LeBron never wins another title but his teams consistently make the championship, he will still be remembered as one of the all time greats. Probably top 5 all time. Now, if he wins a few more, he will be right up there with Jordan.

There's a bit of Jim Kelly syndrom with stars who lead their teams to their championship games but can't seem to win the big one. If Kelly and the Bills had won those Super Bowls he would be mentioned along Montana as the best of all time.

Same with Elway. He's only up there after he got Terrell Davis to be the driving force to help him get 2 titles.

 

[trojanfan12]

There's a bit of Jim Kelly syndrom with stars who lead their teams to their championship games but can't seem to win the big one. If Kelly and the Bills had won those Super Bowls he would be mentioned along Montana as the best of all time.

And that's what will ultimately keep Lebron out of the top 5. No question that Jim Kelly was a great qb, but part of being a top 5 player is coming through in the biggest of games.

It may not be fair, but it's how it's done. The differences between the top players is generally so slim that it's really the only tiebreaker that works.

When talking about talent and overall ability to play the game, there is no question that Lebron is one of, if not the best to ever play. But you have to have the rings to truly be in that top 5 and that's what Lebron lacks.

 

[Tharvot]

And that's what will ultimately keep Lebron out of the top 5. No question that Jim Kelly was a great qb, but part of being a top 5 player is coming through in the biggest of games.

It may not be fair, but it's how it's done. The differences between the top players is generally so slim that it's really the only tiebreaker that works.

When talking about talent and overall ability to play the game, there is no question that Lebron is one of, if not the best to ever play. But you have to have the rings to truly be in that top 5 and that's what Lebron lacks.

Individual greatness is too often attributed to team results IMO. You can't grab any other player in the league, throw them on a team, and immediately that team will be finals contenders like you can with LeBron.

All-time rankings is purely speculative, so I guess it doesn't really matter what metrics you use. I just hope he can deliver at least 1 championship to Cleveland. If any city deserves one, its that town.