Welcome to the Broncos, Adam Trautman

[Draft Crazy]

I'm thinking if he's at his most effective when split out wide then it's better to put a WR in that spot. If a TE can't regularly line up tight and competently pass pro/run block then there isn't a reason to keep him on the field instead of a WR, unless your WR corps just isn't very deep with talent. Who are we going to have as WR3 on a regular basis? Would you rather have that guy on the field or Dulcich? Shannon Sharpe is an obvious example of a TE that you keep on the field over a WR3 but then Shannon Sharpe is in the Hall Of Fame, so...

TE's are often split out because they cause a matchup nightmares for team to cover due to their size and ability to get open. Spitting them out allows them to release right away rather then block or be pressed and release.

 

[listopencil]

TE's are often split out because they cause a matchup nightmares for team to cover due to their size and ability to get open. Spitting them out allows them to release right away rather then block or be pressed and release.

It only causes that nightmare if the TE can play competently from in tight. Because then they are deforming the Defense when they split out, they are moving defenders out of their positions and they are forcing a defender to take on something that isn't his ideal role.

 

[Draft Crazy]

It only causes that nightmare if the TE can play competently from in tight. Because then they are deforming the Defense when they split out, they are moving defenders out of their positions and they are forcing a defender to take on something that isn't his ideal role.

So you're trying to say a TE is not effective unless they are playing in tight? I would disagree with that. I would agree the more versatile you are the more effective if you are but I can name plenty of TE's who can't block who are valuable rec TE's when split out Sure, you can't abuse it and rely on them to always split out. They become a role player in packages then an every down WR. Not saying a split out TE is going to be something you want to rely on play after play but a bigger TE who has speed and separation who can split out with effective WR's will cause a nightmare problem. Teams have often done it against us.

 

[listopencil]

So you're trying to say a TE is not effective unless they are playing in tight? I would disagree with that. I would agree the more versatile you are the more effective if you are but I can name plenty of TE's who can't block who are valuable rec TE's when split out Sure, you can't abuse it and rely on them to always split out. They become a role player in packages then an every down WR. Not saying a split out TE is going to be something you want to rely on play after play but a bigger TE who has speed and separation who can split out with effective WR's will cause a nightmare problem. Teams have often done it against us.

No, I'm saying a TE is not effective if they can't play in tight. Because then...they become a role player in packages. Because if they're just going to be receivers, and it benefits the team to put the best receivers on the field, then Dulcich probably isn't going to be that guy. So who is a better receiver? Dulcich or our WR3? It's probably going to be the WR3.

 

[Draft Crazy]

No, I'm saying a TE is not effective if they can't play in tight. Because then...they become a role player in packages. Because if they're just going to be receivers, and it benefits the team to put the best receivers on the field, then Dulcich probably isn't going to be that guy. So who is a better receiver? Dulcich or our WR3? It's probably going to be the WR3.

and I am saying role players can be effective too. A WR3 is more then likely going to be the better WR3 of course. But throwing a different package, beating teams in different ways is a good idea. You don't want to always throw the same package out there and be predictable. My point is I guess that if Dulcich can't block we can still make use of him and he can still be effective here. Just like when Robert Gallery bombed at LT for the Raiders he found a way to be effective at OG... Would they have made him the #2 overall pick if they knew he was going to spend most of his career playing OG? Noooo, but they still found a way to make him effective and get use out of him. I'm not calling Dulcich a crazy off the chart split out TE. I am just saying you can still use him in packages and he can cause matchup problems for opposing teams trying to throw different packages at them. Just like Nik Bonitto. If he can never stop the run then you probably took him too early but if he can continue to develop as a pass rusher then you can still get use out of him as a specialized pass rusher.

For the record. I am not saying that is all these guys are. I am just saying we do have something to fall back on them and use them as. I don't think we probably ever draft Dulcich thinking he was going to be a great blocking TE. Just not sure it is what Payton wants in his TE but he still has ways to use him.

Just like Karl Paymah back in the day. He was a terrible pick as a CB but hey he still became a great special teams gunner for us and hung around the NFL for special teams play. Was he worth the 3rd round pick? No! But he played an important role at least in another way.

 

[Mingo]

and I am saying role players can be effective too. A WR3 is more then likely going to be the better WR3 of course. But throwing a different package, beating teams in different ways is a good idea. You don't want to always throw the same package out there and be predictable. My point is I guess that if Dulcich can't block we can still make use of him and he can still be effective here. Just like when Robert Gallery bombed at LT for the Raiders he found a way to be effective at OG... Would they have made him the #2 overall pick if they knew he was going to spend most of his career playing OG? Noooo, but they still found a way to make him effective and get use out of him. I'm not calling Dulcich a crazy off the chart split out TE. I am just saying you can still use him in packages and he can cause matchup problems for opposing teams trying to throw different packages at them. Just like Nik Bonitto. If he can never stop the run then you probably took him too early but if he can continue to develop as a pass rusher then you can still get use out of him as a specialized pass rusher.

For the record. I am not saying that is all these guys are. I am just saying we do have something to fall back on them and use them as. I don't think we probably ever draft Dulcich thinking he was going to be a great blocking TE. Just not sure it is what Payton wants in his TE but he still has ways to use him.

Just like Karl Paymah back in the day. He was a terrible pick as a CB but hey he still became a great special teams gunner for us and hung around the NFL for special teams play. Was he worth the 3rd round pick? No! But he played an important role at least in another way.

You are correct DC, but it may be that Dulcich is more valuable to another team and another scheme and if that's the case he should be traded.

 

[listopencil]

and I am saying role players can be effective too. A WR3 is more then likely going to be the better WR3 of course. But throwing a different package, beating teams in different ways is a good idea. You don't want to always throw the same package out there and be predictable. My point is I guess that if Dulcich can't block we can still make use of him and he can still be effective here. Just like when Robert Gallery bombed at LT for the Raiders he found a way to be effective at OG... Would they have made him the #2 overall pick if they knew he was going to spend most of his career playing OG? Noooo, but they still found a way to make him effective and get use out of him. I'm not calling Dulcich a crazy off the chart split out TE. I am just saying you can still use him in packages and he can cause matchup problems for opposing teams trying to throw different packages at them. Just like Nik Bonitto. If he can never stop the run then you probably took him too early but if he can continue to develop as a pass rusher then you can still get use out of him as a specialized pass rusher.

For the record. I am not saying that is all these guys are. I am just saying we do have something to fall back on them and use them as. I don't think we probably ever draft Dulcich thinking he was going to be a great blocking TE. Just not sure it is what Payton wants in his TE but he still has ways to use him.

Just like Karl Paymah back in the day. He was a terrible pick as a CB but hey he still became a great special teams gunner for us and hung around the NFL for special teams play. Was he worth the 3rd round pick? No! But he played an important role at least in another way.

Sure, but when a guy has specific weaknesses he becomes a liability instead of an asset. That happened to Phillip Lindsay. He was practically useless in the passing game as a RB. He could not reliably catch the ball and he could not effectively pass pro. So they ended up putting him out there only to run the ball then defenses would just flood the lanes and shut him down. I'm thinking of it like this:

On every play we're going to have 5 O-Line and a QB. On that vast majority of plays we will have at least 2 WR. Although it would not surprise me to find out that the Broncos have used an empty backfield at least once every game for years, we also tend to have at least 1 RB on the field. That's 9 guys out of 11. So, for the most part, that leaves 2 spots to play with. The Defense is going to pay a lot of attention to who those 2 guys are. If one of those 2 guys is a TE that only runs routes...you're showing your hand before you snap the ball. If you're willing to do that then you might as well put the better receiver out there because you aren't fooling anyone.

 

[Draft Crazy]

You are correct DC, but it may be that Dulcich is more valuable to another team and another scheme and if that's the case he should be traded.

Depends on the value we get in return. I wouldn't just give him away because he is more valuable to another team. There are a lot of players that are more valuable to other teams doesn't mean we are going to give him to them. I sitll think he can help us but everyone is open for the right price.

 

[Draft Crazy]

Sure, but when a guy has specific weaknesses he becomes a liability instead of an asset. That happened to Phillip Lindsay. He was practically useless in the passing game as a RB. He could not reliably catch the ball and he could not effectively pass pro. So they ended up putting him out there only to run the ball then defenses would just flood the lanes and shut him down. I'm thinking of it like this:

On every play we're going to have 5 O-Line and a QB. On that vast majority of plays we will have at least 2 WR. Although it would not surprise me to find out that the Broncos have used an empty backfield at least once every game for years, we also tend to have at least 1 RB on the field. That's 9 guys out of 11. So, for the most part, that leaves 2 spots to play with. The Defense is going to pay a lot of attention to who those 2 guys are. If one of those 2 guys is a TE that only runs routes...you're showing your hand before you snap the ball. If you're willing to do that then you might as well put the better receiver out there because you aren't fooling anyone.

Understand... But we can use Dulcich... Lindsay was no good to us after we got Javonte and Gordon. He didn't catch the ball, he didn't pass protect and he didn't play special teams. Not something you want to keep around as your 3rd RB.
My point is as simple as Dulcich can be effective splitting out. If he can't block we can still use him to a lesser extent. Nothing more then that. He still causes matchup problems as a receiver. It isn't like we have 3 TE's on this roster who are killer receivers and blockers. Dulcich can still be utilized. He becomes a liability when you ask him to block and END or LB... So if you want to make good use of him you depend on him less to do that and see if you still find a role for him. I am not saying it is ideal. I am saying he can be a role player. I don't think Dulcich will be on the field to fool anyone. His role will be limited because of it. In 3rd and 11 I don't think you are going to fool many people weather you have Dulcich in the game or not people are going to expect you to pass the ball. This is why I refer to Dulcich as a one trick pony. You can only use him for one purpose. I think you're getting confused with him being our #3 WR and using him in different packages split out as a WR much like we did Scheffler and a lot of teams use pass catching TE's. This is nothing new in the NFL... A lot of teams have a TE who plays this role. You aren't going to have a TE in this role catch 70 passes or out catch your top 3 WR's. It is a different look. You can't run the same stuff game in and game out. You have to have versatility with your play calling and package formations.

 

[eaglesnut]

Payton is a sneaky mother fucker

Trautman just turned 26. He's in prime TE breakout territory. Drafted and started developing him. From a small school he was always looking at a longer learning curve to play in the trenches in this league.

Could be a major steal.

 

[Draft Crazy]

Payton is a sneaky mother fucker

Trautman just turned 26. He's in prime TE breakout territory. Drafted and started developing him. From a small school he was always looking at a longer learning curve to play in the trenches in this league.

Could be a major steal.

Pretty sure it was you who I use to talk about this guy a few years ago during the draft. A player we both really liked. Think we even fought over him in DCFFL one year. Not to the extent of Keenan Allen though.

 

[Mingo]

Depends on the value we get in return. I wouldn't just give him away because he is more valuable to another team. There are a lot of players that are more valuable to other teams doesn't mean we are going to give him to them. I sitll think he can help us but everyone is open for the right price.

Doesn't being more valuable to another team imply a trade would favor the Broncos improvement as it may favor another team's improvement? Of course, you wouldn't trade him for less than his contribution.

 

[Orange Crush77]

Trautman is an excellent blocker Payton wants to bully defenses. Hopefully he can stay healthy

 

[Draft Crazy]

Doesn't being more valuable to another team imply a trade would favor the Broncos improvement as it may favor another team's improvement? Of course, you wouldn't trade him for less than his contribution.

I simply don't think the value we would get is worth trading him at this point. We aren't going to get a 3rd round pick for him and I wouldn't take anything less then that without at least going through another camp and then if we decide what we have is better and we can't use him then so be it.

I think Dulcich is going to contribute for us this year.

 

[Draft Crazy]

Trautman is an excellent blocker Payton wants to bully defenses. Hopefully he can stay healthy

Yes!

 

[listopencil]

Understand... But we can use Dulcich... Lindsay was no good to us after we got Javonte and Gordon. He didn't catch the ball, he didn't pass protect and he didn't play special teams. Not something you want to keep around as your 3rd RB.
My point is as simple as Dulcich can be effective splitting out. If he can't block we can still use him to a lesser extent. Nothing more then that. He still causes matchup problems as a receiver. It isn't like we have 3 TE's on this roster who are killer receivers and blockers. Dulcich can still be utilized. He becomes a liability when you ask him to block and END or LB... So if you want to make good use of him you depend on him less to do that and see if you still find a role for him. I am not saying it is ideal. I am saying he can be a role player. I don't think Dulcich will be on the field to fool anyone. His role will be limited because of it. In 3rd and 11 I don't think you are going to fool many people weather you have Dulcich in the game or not people are going to expect you to pass the ball. This is why I refer to Dulcich as a one trick pony. You can only use him for one purpose. I think you're getting confused with him being our #3 WR and using him in different packages split out as a WR much like we did Scheffler and a lot of teams use pass catching TE's. This is nothing new in the NFL... A lot of teams have a TE who plays this role. You aren't going to have a TE in this role catch 70 passes or out catch your top 3 WR's. It is a different look. You can't run the same stuff game in and game out. You have to have versatility with your play calling and package formations.

See, I'd prefer that the Offense go in a different direction. I'd love to have primary (starting) skill positions across the board and I'd prefer to keep them on the field for the vast majority of plays. I enjoy the stability, and I think the team needs that stability right now. Find a group that works well together and let them play. With that in mind the back ups have to either be similar to the starters but not quite as good, or offer something special that stresses a Defense. The easy example is a small-ish speedster that can line up all over the place and ruin the Defense's timing. I can see developing a sub package for a guy like that. I think what you are talking about is something else; slipping him out there as a target on obvious passing downs because he's a really good receiver. If we need X number of guys running a route on a given play and he's one of the X best receivers on the team, then sure. Do that. But keep in mind that X will never be greater than 5 and that's with no pass pro so the ball has to come out fast. Dulcich's strength as a receiver is not his speed - it's his ability to find holes in a Defense.

 

[Draft Crazy]

Trautman will be wearing #82

Last worn by Eric Saubert but the real #82 is Vance Johnson.

 

[Duffman]

 

[Draft Crazy]

That's a guy who loves Sean Payton!

 

[Draft Crazy]

Dan Campbell was talking the other day about how he is going to use Sam LaPorta. Often split out as a 3rd WR causing mismatches against teams in certain packages. Exactly how we will use Dulcich this year, IMO.

LaPorta is an above average blocker too so I am sure his role will be more then that but this is a very common way in the NFL with TE usage (splitting them out to force the defense to adjust and not be able to throw the same package out snap after snap.