We need more speed on the O side

[cubzzzfanincali]

this is an interesting point you brought up. Perhaps one reason Forte had such a hard time getting long runs is that the strong safety was able to play further up in the box than normal. The next time I watch a few All-22 games from the regular season, I am going to watch out for that.

 

[blh7068]

this is an interesting point you brought up. Perhaps one reason Forte had such a hard time getting long runs is that the strong safety was able to play further up in the box than normal. The next time I watch a few All-22 games from the regular season, I am going to watch out for that.

I think it very much contributed to a YPC and lack of 20 plus yard runs that were both below his career averages. Compared to other feature backs however, he never has been a home run hitter wrt to taking long runs to the house. He doesnt have that extra gear, and really doesnt absorb contact all that well. The flipside? Hes a quick/shifty runner, and that makes defenders miss. He also has done very well in space- whether its receiving or running outside.

 

[anotheridiot]

I think it very much contributed to a YPC and lack of 20 plus yard runs that were both below his career averages. Compared to other feature backs however, he never has been a home run hitter wrt to taking long runs to the house. He doesnt have that extra gear, and really doesnt absorb contact all that well. The flipside? Hes a quick/shifty runner, and that makes defenders miss. He also has done very well in space- whether its receiving or running outside.

Yes, I think the safety decided to go when there wasnt a run and its also why the dump offs to Forte were the most run play in the offense last year.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

He had 36 carries in 2014. Forte was 5th in the league in carries last season. As a team, the Bears were 30th. Carey absolutely remains an unknown quantity.

What is known is he is not a speed back. Never was.

 

[blh7068]

Yes, I think the safety decided to go when there wasnt a run and its also why the dump offs to Forte were the most run play in the offense last year.

IMO, more often than not the safety stayed put(or even played deeper) because support wasnt necessary. Forte saw that many checkdowns because the safety positioning made it extremely difficult for the big three to get open downfield and/or over the top of the secondary. Despite Cutlers mistakes, one thing he doesnt get credit for is how often he took what was available. His high completion pct and low ypa as a body of work is proof of that.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

this is an interesting point you brought up. Perhaps one reason Forte had such a hard time getting long runs is that the strong safety was able to play further up in the box than normal. .

This is exactly why we need a fast guy, too force that safety back. Teams scooted up on us all last year.

 

[blh7068]

What is known is he is not a speed back. Never was.

Thats because his college production and combine results defined him as such. In the NFL, he had a mere 36 touches last year- we dont know how his abilities will/or wont translate to on field production. Thats what I mean by saying he remains an unknown quantity. IOW- he hasnt had enough touches at the NFL level that either support or debunk whats defined him as not "fast" to this point.

Speed alone doesnt directly equate to NFL fast- cmon...you know this. Ability to absorb contact, wear down a defense, his productivity/versatility running inside and outside the tackles, and perhaps 'downhill' running capability are all things that remain unanswered with only 36 carries to this point.

 

[blh7068]

This is exactly why we need a fast guy, too force that safety back. Teams scooted up on us all last year.

I maintain that most run plays were not only too predictable, they were too often snuffed out by the opposing front 7. Therefore, no run support was needed. Sure speed will help, but this was a big reason the featured downfield targets struggled mightily to stretch the field/get over the top of the secondary. They stayed put, or even played further back in those situations where it was patently obvious what was coming.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

I maintain that most run plays were not only too predictable, they were too often snuffed out by the opposing front 7. Therefore, no run support was needed. Sure speed will help, but this was a big reason the featured downfield targets struggled mightily to stretch the field/get over the top of the secondary. They stayed put, or even played further back in those situations where it was patently obvious what was coming.

well, maybe, I'm glad you pointed this out because I really haven't specifically watched the games with this thought in mind, but the next time I do I will. But then here is the thing...this line of discussion started with a point about a speed WR opening up the running game because it forces the safeties to stay honest. But if the Bears are unable to deal with the front 7, we can add all the speed guys we want, it won't help us from that standpoint. If Garza and Bushrod are getting beat at the point of attack, the safeties can play in the end zone for all that matters.

 

[anotheridiot]

IMO, more often than not the safety stayed put(or even played deeper) because support wasnt necessary. Forte saw that many checkdowns because the safety positioning made it extremely difficult for the big three to get open downfield and/or over the top of the secondary. Despite Cutlers mistakes, one thing he doesnt get credit for is how often he took what was available. His high completion pct and low ypa as a body of work is proof of that.

Thats kinda what I meant, the run up the gut was doing nothing, so they gave up too quickly. Seemed like each audible from run was a pass to forte. My complaint was (well one of them) is you would assume if the run to the left didnt look good due to defensive positioning, the audible would be run to the right since you would think the left was overloaded. Now with this 51% knowledge, the call sounded like it was a run to the middle. I remember watching alot and there were not many progressions with cutler, it was audible from the run, dump it to forte. I agree, he took what was available and probably saved Matt alot of hits by getting him past the line before he got the ball.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

Thats because his college production and combine results defined him as such. In the NFL, he had a mere 36 touches last year- we dont know how his abilities will/or wont translate to on field production. Thats what I mean by saying he remains an unknown quantity. IOW- he hasnt had enough touches at the NFL level that either support or debunk whats defined him as not "fast" to this point.

Speed alone doesnt directly equate to NFL fast- cmon...you know this. Ability to absorb contact, wear down a defense, his productivity/versatility running inside and outside the tackles, and perhaps 'downhill' running capability are all things that remain unanswered with only 36 carries to this point.

This post is about getting speed guys that can give us a dimension we lacked last year. Like a speed threat at WR and a speed guy at RB to get outside and take advantage of our big WRs. You know role type players. Carey I hope is more a every down back for the future. But in this post I mean a specialist low to mid money type role player. .

 

[blh7068]

well, maybe, I'm glad you pointed this out because I really haven't specifically watched the games with this thought in mind, but the next time I do I will. But then here is the thing...this line of discussion started with a point about a speed WR opening up the running game because it forces the safeties to stay honest. But if the Bears are unable to deal with the front 7, we can add all the speed guys we want, it won't help us from that standpoint. If Garza and Bushrod are getting beat at the point of attack, the safeties can play in the end zone for all that matters.

Regarding the last two sentences- absolutely. Protection breakdowns occurred often enough to merit concern. Heck, they often struggled to hold blocks even when heavy protect packages were used. Fwiw, I apologize for any derailment of the thread, i just thought my perspective was worth mentioning despite it being OT.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

, I apologize for any derailment of the thread, i just thought my perspective was worth mentioning despite it being OT.

It was. But you never spoke about the topic of adding a speed element. What say ye. And I'm not talking big buck or high priority stuff. Just role type guys. Worth the trouble or not?

 

[leomaz]

Speed is always needed

 

[blh7068]

It was. But you never spoke about the topic of adding a speed element. What say ye. And I'm not talking big buck or high priority stuff. Just role type guys. Worth the trouble or not?

Absolutely. Supposedly Wilson is one of the faster runners on the team...but hes another one with an incomplete grade.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

I think speed is overrated. We just got Adam Gase as our OC. Who on Denver's offense had great speed? Neither Thomas, Sanders, Welkers, Thomas, or any of the rbs their had elite speed. Thomas and sanders are probably the fastest of the bunch, but I wouldn't consider them much faster than Jeffery and Wilson.

 

[NCChiFan]

Speed? Really, I thought the NFL and MLB had outlawed Speed... and Quaaludes and any number of other drugs...

 

[anotheridiot]

I think speed is overrated. We just got Adam Gase as our OC. Who on Denver's offense had great speed? Neither Thomas, Sanders, Welkers, Thomas, or any of the rbs their had elite speed. Thomas and sanders are probably the fastest of the bunch, but I wouldn't consider them much faster than Jeffery and Wilson.

I really hope Gase runs a great offense. It was hard to see what he can do when Manning was the guy calling all the plays.

Pretty much my biggest worry with the new regime, if they have a chip on their shoulder for Manning getting all the credit in Denver.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

I really hope Gase runs a great offense. It was hard to see what he can do when Manning was the guy calling all the plays.

Pretty much my biggest worry with the new regime, if they have a chip on their shoulder for Manning getting all the credit in Denver.

I agree. Manning is why I am skeptical about Gase.

 

[blh7068]

I think speed is overrated. We just got Adam Gase as our OC. Who on Denver's offense had great speed? Neither Thomas, Sanders, Welkers, Thomas, or any of the rbs their had elite speed. Thomas and sanders are probably the fastest of the bunch, but I wouldn't consider them much faster than Jeffery and Wilson.

I would agree- speed as a stand alone element is overrated. However, on this team where all the featured targets lack said element- its not. Especially in those heavy protect schemes weve seen where the O line cant hold blocks long enough for just 3 downfield targets to stretch the field. I do think instances like this make it a necessity. Balance = versatility.