Warning: HOT TAKE thread...where Simmons gonna go?

[msgkings322]

I think an interesting one might be Harrison Barnes, Marvin Bagley and Tyrese Haliburton for Simmons and Gary Clark.

Barnes is ready to produce right away and has NBA Finals experience. Haliburton was one of the best rookies in the NBA, very good playmaker, good defender with size and was a 40% 3 point shooter. Bagley is a low-buy option at this point, but still could turn out to be very good.

Simmons in that up tempo offense with Fox and Hield would be wild. Sacramento gets an Allstar caliber player back in a Luke Walton system that can emphasize his passing.

Pass up on a dunk attempt? We're shipping you to Sacramento...

 

[CitySushi]

Pass up on a dunk attempt? We're shipping you to Sacramento...

Seems like the appropriate punishment.

 

[tlance]

You're not going anywhere with CJ McCollum as your 2nd best player on a playoff team. It's a step down for Philly.

I don’t disagree with that, but you said he has a habit of disappearing in the playoffs. That isn’t true.

He just isn’t good enough to be #2.

 

[dtgold88]

It would definitely require both Cidi and Prince to balance the salaries. Not sure that the Sixers would prefer those two to Love though. That's basically a league average player (Prince) and a bad player who puts up empty stats on a bad team (Osman)

You'd think Love is even worse if you listened to some here and in the media.

 

[wildturkey]

I don’t disagree with that, but you said he has a habit of disappearing in the playoffs. That isn’t true.

He just isn’t good enough to be #2.

Yeah, its probably taking it too far. He's not a complete disappearing act but the story of the recent Blazers playoffs history is largely Dame putting the team on his back and them looking for anyone to step up and put them over the top. But it never happens. It's just Dame busting his ass. CJ is suppose to be that guy. He does it regular season games. But in vital times in the playoffs, he's not there. He can't step up and share that load like a true all star. And my point is the Sixers would just be traded one set of problems for another. Simmons is a worse fit, but is an all star talent that happens to shrink completely in the playoffs offensively. McCollum may be a better fit skill wise on paper, but he is a lesser player who also doesn't consistently step up and take over games or share the load. If that's your choice, you might as well keep the more talented player (Simmons) and hope you can figure it out.

 

[returnofjakedog]

You're not going anywhere with CJ McCollum as your 2nd best player on a playoff team. It's a step down for Philly.

So you are proposing that adding a scorer/shooter onto a team that DESPERATELY needs those skills is somehow a step backwards?

You have Thybulle, who might actually be a better perimeter defender than Simmons, which is an extremely high bar. Neither are shooters persay so they are kinda redundant on offense. I doubt that he can run the point, but Simmons has already proven that he can't. In fact I would propose that McCollum would be a better offensive initiator than Simmons just based on the fact you would have to respect his outside shot.

You are over-rating Simmons value at this time. He is a great defender but his lack of scoring ability, his playoff collapse and confidence issues have derailed his perceived value. He is also now a 5 year veteran on a huge contract. The potential card no longer holds the value it did a couple years ago.

It is funny that you say the McCollum would be a step down for Philly when the reality is that they would have had a much better chance to still be playing right now if McCollum was on the team in place of Simmons (in regards to the last series at least, not the whole season, which would require more input).

You could argue that last season's injury and his age would require a little more. Maybe Portland would have to throw in a protected first, or a quality rotation player but Simmon's contract is a bit of an albatross at this point. He may never be able to play up to a $36 million a year average over the next 5 considering his offensive issues.

 

[returnofjakedog]

Yeah, its probably taking it too far. He's not a complete disappearing act but the story of the recent Blazers playoffs history is largely Dame putting the team on his back and them looking for anyone to step up and put them over the top. But it never happens. It's just Dame busting his ass. CJ is suppose to be that guy. He does it regular season games. But in vital times in the playoffs, he's not there. He can't step up and share that load like a true all star. And my point is the Sixers would just be traded one set of problems for another. Simmons is a worse fit, but is an all star talent that happens to shrink completely in the playoffs offensively. McCollum may be a better fit skill wise on paper, but he is a lesser player who also doesn't consistently step up and take over games or share the load. If that's your choice, you might as well keep the more talented player (Simmons) and hope you can figure it out.

Why do you keep claiming McCollum disappears in the playoffs? @shopson67 has already disproven that but you go back and repeat that fallacy even after shown it wasn't true.

CJ's career postseason stats: 20ppg on 43.9/38.4/77.3 shooting, 2.8 ast, 4.2 reb
Regular season stats: 18.9ppg on 45.5/39.8/82.6 shooting, 4.7 ast, 3.9 reb

To take it a step further, if you look at the years after he became a starter then CJ's numbers jump.

Again, Simmon's value at $36 million a year is highly questionable at this time, to the point that you might have to pay someone (in draft picks) to unload him. Thybulle does much of what Simmons does at a fraction of the cost, and you can get an actual PG who teams don't just leave open at the 3 pt line to more than compensate for his other contributions.

 

[thunderc]

It would not surprise me one bit for the Thunder to wind up with either Simmons or Porzingus.

 

[bksballer89]

It would not surprise me one bit for the Thunder to wind up with either Simmons or Porzingus.

Who would you prefer

 

[thunderc]

Who would you prefer

Tough question. I have to say Simmons if those are my choices I guess.

 

[wildturkey]

Why do you keep claiming McCollum disappears in the playoffs? @shopson67 has already disproven that but you go back and repeat that fallacy even after shown it wasn't true.

CJ's career postseason stats: 20ppg on 43.9/38.4/77.3 shooting, 2.8 ast, 4.2 reb
Regular season stats: 18.9ppg on 45.5/39.8/82.6 shooting, 4.7 ast, 3.9 reb

To take it a step further, if you look at the years after he became a starter then CJ's numbers jump.

Again, Simmon's value at $36 million a year is highly questionable at this time, to the point that you might have to pay someone (in draft picks) to unload him. Thybulle does much of what Simmons does at a fraction of the cost, and you can get an actual PG who teams don't just leave open at the 3 pt line to more than compensate for his other contributions.

McCollum isn't an all star. He's a nice player but he's the guard version of Tobias Harris. You're gonna be paying 30+ mil for that. He's just as expensive as Simmons. He doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way to put you over the top. It's also why Portland are shopping him as they're trying to improve their team around Dame. Simmons has much more talent. There's too much overreaction to his playoff series loss. He still has plenty of value to a variety of teams and if Philly is shopping him, there is gonna be plenty of offers for him. And you can get better ones than a straight up swap for CJ McCollum.

And if you think Thybulle can do what Simmons can do, you're not paying attention to Simmons' all around game. He can't. If you want to talk players doing much of what the other does for fractions, Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ McCollum than Thybulle is to approximating Simmons. Simmons is just a bad fit with Embiid in his current form. But even with that bad fit, they're still pretty darn good. That's how much of an impact Simmons has overall. If he can develop just a shot, doesn't even have to be good, just near average, teams can win championships if he's your #2 player. That still a big ask considering his total lack of development this far in, but its possible and its why he still has a lot of value.

 

[Iggloo]

New trade option emerges? Sixers need to think out of the box on this one. Can Simmons play cornerback?

 

[shopson67]

You're not going anywhere with CJ McCollum as your 2nd best player on a playoff team. It's a step down for Philly.

It wouldn't be a straight one for one most likely.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Who would you prefer

Gotta be Ben. Porzingis is injured half the time and doesn't seem all that redeemable from a being a solid 2 standpoint.

I do think Ben would thrive in a less stressful city.

 

[shopson67]

I think an interesting one might be Harrison Barnes, Marvin Bagley and Tyrese Haliburton for Simmons and Gary Clark.

Barnes is ready to produce right away and has NBA Finals experience. Haliburton was one of the best rookies in the NBA, very good playmaker, good defender with size and was a 40% 3 point shooter. Bagley is a low-buy option at this point, but still could turn out to be very good.

Simmons in that up tempo offense with Fox and Hield would be wild. liber player back in a Luke Walton system that can emphasize his passing.

Is it smart to build to Walton's system? Is he really the long term answer in Sacramento?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

McCollum isn't an all star. He's a nice player but he's the guard version of Tobias Harris. You're gonna be paying 30+ mil for that. He's just as expensive as Simmons. He doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way to put you over the top. It's also why Portland are shopping him as they're trying to improve their team around Dame. Simmons has much more talent. There's too much overreaction to his playoff series loss. He still has plenty of value to a variety of teams and if Philly is shopping him, there is gonna be plenty of offers for him. And you can get better ones than a straight up swap for CJ McCollum.

And if you think Thybulle can do what Simmons can do, you're not paying attention to Simmons' all around game. He can't. If you want to talk players doing much of what the other does for fractions, Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ McCollum than Thybulle is to approximating Simmons. Simmons is just a bad fit with Embiid in his current form. But even with that bad fit, they're still pretty darn good. That's how much of an impact Simmons has overall. If he can develop just a shot, doesn't even have to be good, just near average, teams can win championships if he's your #2 player. That still a big ask considering his total lack of development this far in, but its possible and its why he still has a lot of value.

Ben would be better served with a team built around a strong SG/wing or even point. Joel commands inside looks that would go to Ben otherwise.

Ideally that team would have a 5 that can knock down treys but doesn't demand a high usage.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Shaq was never afraid to shoot, certainly never afraid to dunk. Totally different situation.

I think a Zach Lavine for Simmons trade, that's the kind of move you will likely see, with other players/picks to make it work for both sides.

Even that realistically may be too much to ask for Simmons at this point.

Nobody in their right mind gives up zack lavine for ben simmons at this point in their careers.

 

[shopson67]

McCollum isn't an all star. He's a nice player but he's the guard version of Tobias Harris. You're gonna be paying 30+ mil for that. He's just as expensive as Simmons. He doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way to put you over the top. It's also why Portland are shopping him as they're trying to improve their team around Dame. Simmons has much more talent. There's too much overreaction to his playoff series loss. He still has plenty of value to a variety of teams and if Philly is shopping him, there is gonna be plenty of offers for him. And you can get better ones than a straight up swap for CJ McCollum.

And if you think Thybulle can do what Simmons can do, you're not paying attention to Simmons' all around game. He can't. If you want to talk players doing much of what the other does for fractions, Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ McCollum than Thybulle is to approximating Simmons. Simmons is just a bad fit with Embiid in his current form. But even with that bad fit, they're still pretty darn good. That's how much of an impact Simmons has overall. If he can develop just a shot, doesn't even have to be good, just near average, teams can win championships if he's your #2 player. That still a big ask considering his total lack of development this far in, but its possible and its why he still has a lot of value.

Blazers have reportedly told CJ he's not being traded this summer.

Mannix: McCollum Staying In Portland

Sports Illustrated’s Chris Mannix has poured cold water on a pending CJ McCollum trade.

www.blazersedge.com

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Compare Simmons to this guy, tell me who will be better in two years

Easier said than done.

 

[returnofjakedog]

McCollum isn't an all star. He's a nice player but he's the guard version of Tobias Harris. You're gonna be paying 30+ mil for that. He's just as expensive as Simmons. He doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way to put you over the top. It's also why Portland are shopping him as they're trying to improve their team around Dame. Simmons has much more talent. There's too much overreaction to his playoff series loss. He still has plenty of value to a variety of teams and if Philly is shopping him, there is gonna be plenty of offers for him. And you can get better ones than a straight up swap for CJ McCollum.

And if you think Thybulle can do what Simmons can do, you're not paying attention to Simmons' all around game. He can't. If you want to talk players doing much of what the other does for fractions, Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ McCollum than Thybulle is to approximating Simmons. Simmons is just a bad fit with Embiid in his current form. But even with that bad fit, they're still pretty darn good. That's how much of an impact Simmons has overall. If he can develop just a shot, doesn't even have to be good, just near average, teams can win championships if he's your #2 player. That still a big ask considering his total lack of development this far in, but its possible and its why he still has a lot of value.

-First off, Simmons averages about $4 million a year more on his coming contract. So no CJ is not "just as expensive".
-McCollum "doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way"
Now you are just making things up. In his 6 years as a starter he is consistent 22 ppg scorer on +45% and 40% 3-pt shooting.
Thats 40% 3-pt shooting, as opposed to Simmons 15% 3-pt shooting.

-"Simmons has so much more talent"
You are stuck on his perceived potential. The problem is the potential card has been seriously devalued at this point.

Simmons does have tons of athletic ability and he is an extraordinary defender. But he is now a 5 year veteran who shoots 3 pointers and free throws at rate that makes him a liability to his own team! This is what you don't seem to want to acknowledge: at this point you have to try to hide Simmons on the offensive side which is a HUGE problem.

-I never said that Thybulle can do what Simmons can do overall. What I did say is that Thybulle is quite possibly a better perimeter and on-the-ball defender than Simmons, which is saying something as Simmons is top notch in that department.
Thybulle tied for 3rd is steals this year despite playing 500 fewer minutes than any others in the top 20, and finished 20th in blocks despite being a back up guard!!


You are correct in that Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ than Thybulle is to Simmons but that was never the comparison to begin with. However if you want to compare Seth to CJ, the big difference is that Seth is a great shooter but CJ is much better at creating his own shot. Also Seth and CJ could co-exist in a back court, which Simmons has proven he can't based solely on his outside shooting.

-You are also correct in that Embid and Simmons are a bad fit. However there is no fix for this. Simmon's lack of outside shooting creates offensive log jams and hurts the offense as a whole. One of them needs to go if Philly wants to succeed.
It is "funny" that you say that Portland is shopping CJ "because he isn't good enough" (paraphrasing) when the truth is that they might consider trading him because he is too similar to Lillard. So the real situation is that Lillard and CJ have similar skillsets that make them somewhat redundant on their own team. It isn't his lack of talent as a #2 option, but the fact that you have 2 ball dominant scorers who create their own shots.

Also I never proposed a straight up trade between the two. I clearly stated that Portland could throw in the likes of Anfernee Simons or other player capable of contributing and/or a protected 1st.

It comes down to this: we both have some valid points (something you seem adverse to admit, but whatever) but you seem to think that Simmons' value is still what it was a couple of years ago. It isn't. We know what he is now: an excellent defender who can't shoot past 15 feet and is therefore a negative on the offensive end. His value based on potential isn't much as he is now a 5 year veteran.

For me it comes down to this: regardless of perceived individual value, a CJ for Simmons trade would theoretically help both teams significantly. It moves redundant skillsets for both teams into situations where they would be seemingly much better fits.

For you Simmons has retained his value despite his issues and still could play on the 6ers next year. For me, his value has been damaged and trying to integrate him into the Philly line up next year as a non-PG (you can't start him there again) would most likely just make things worse.

You can have all of the athletic ability and potential in the world, but you can't play guard in the NBA on under 15% 3-pt shooting and under 60% free throw shooting. Those numbers are huge career killers. You state that CJ is not a #2 option on a team, which is debatable (I propose that he certainly is on offense) but the problem with that is that Simmons isn't a #2 offensive option or probably not even a #3 offensive option at this point either.
If Simmons is to resurrect his career it needs to be somewhere where he plays in the frontcourt next to a C who can shoot outside. That isn't in Philly.