Warning: HOT TAKE thread...where Simmons gonna go?

[CitySushi]

Is it smart to build to Walton's system? Is he really the long term answer in Sacramento?

No, but it's smart to acquire top tier talent, which Ben Simmons still is, IMO. Sacramento has struggled with drafting and they circumvent this by getting an established player to pair with Fox long term as a PG/PF combo. Simmons is ideal in an uptempo offense, so just saying he would benefit their current system, not to build around Walton.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

No, but it's smart to acquire top tier talent, which Ben Simmons still is, IMO. Sacramento has struggled with drafting and they circumvent this by getting an established player to pair with Fox long term as a PG/PF combo. Simmons is ideal in an uptempo offense, so just saying he would benefit their current system, not to build around Walton.

I think it's a solid trade idea. Haliburton has a ton of upside and Bagley is enticing. Barnes gives you playoff experience and scoring punch.

From the Kings POV they're trading Haliburton and two guys not long for Sacramento

 

[ChrisperJ10]

 

[msgkings322]

Stephen A said it, so we know it's not happening.

 

[wildturkey]

It wouldn't be a straight one for one most likely.

The salaries match up already. For any more to be added, both teams are gonna have to add other players. I doubt either team would include other quality players so it would be shuffling of some lower rotation players, so the deal would still largely be one for one. And it doesn't really matter if a team tells the player he won't be traded. Teams say that all the time. Philly just told the same thing to Simmons. You think they aren't fielding offers now?

 

[wildturkey]

-First off, Simmons averages about $4 million a year more on his coming contract. So no CJ is not "just as expensive".
-McCollum "doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way"
Now you are just making things up. In his 6 years as a starter he is consistent 22 ppg scorer on +45% and 40% 3-pt shooting.
Thats 40% 3-pt shooting, as opposed to Simmons 15% 3-pt shooting.

-"Simmons has so much more talent"
You are stuck on his perceived potential. The problem is the potential card has been seriously devalued at this point.

Simmons does have tons of athletic ability and he is an extraordinary defender. But he is now a 5 year veteran who shoots 3 pointers and free throws at rate that makes him a liability to his own team! This is what you don't seem to want to acknowledge: at this point you have to try to hide Simmons on the offensive side which is a HUGE problem.

-I never said that Thybulle can do what Simmons can do overall. What I did say is that Thybulle is quite possibly a better perimeter and on-the-ball defender than Simmons, which is saying something as Simmons is top notch in that department.
Thybulle tied for 3rd is steals this year despite playing 500 fewer minutes than any others in the top 20, and finished 20th in blocks despite being a back up guard!!


You are correct in that Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ than Thybulle is to Simmons but that was never the comparison to begin with. However if you want to compare Seth to CJ, the big difference is that Seth is a great shooter but CJ is much better at creating his own shot. Also Seth and CJ could co-exist in a back court, which Simmons has proven he can't based solely on his outside shooting.

-You are also correct in that Embid and Simmons are a bad fit. However there is no fix for this. Simmon's lack of outside shooting creates offensive log jams and hurts the offense as a whole. One of them needs to go if Philly wants to succeed.
It is "funny" that you say that Portland is shopping CJ "because he isn't good enough" (paraphrasing) when the truth is that they might consider trading him because he is too similar to Lillard. So the real situation is that Lillard and CJ have similar skillsets that make them somewhat redundant on their own team. It isn't his lack of talent as a #2 option, but the fact that you have 2 ball dominant scorers who create their own shots.

Also I never proposed a straight up trade between the two. I clearly stated that Portland could throw in the likes of Anfernee Simons or other player capable of contributing and/or a protected 1st.

It comes down to this: we both have some valid points (something you seem adverse to admit, but whatever) but you seem to think that Simmons' value is still what it was a couple of years ago. It isn't. We know what he is now: an excellent defender who can't shoot past 15 feet and is therefore a negative on the offensive end. His value based on potential isn't much as he is now a 5 year veteran.

For me it comes down to this: regardless of perceived individual value, a CJ for Simmons trade would theoretically help both teams significantly. It moves redundant skillsets for both teams into situations where they would be seemingly much better fits.

For you Simmons has retained his value despite his issues and still could play on the 6ers next year. For me, his value has been damaged and trying to integrate him into the Philly line up next year as a non-PG (you can't start him there again) would most likely just make things worse.

You can have all of the athletic ability and potential in the world, but you can't play guard in the NBA on under 15% 3-pt shooting and under 60% free throw shooting. Those numbers are huge career killers. You state that CJ is not a #2 option on a team, which is debatable (I propose that he certainly is on offense) but the problem with that is that Simmons isn't a #2 offensive option or probably not even a #3 offensive option at this point either.
If Simmons is to resurrect his career it needs to be somewhere where he plays in the frontcourt next to a C who can shoot outside. That isn't in Philly.

-I know his numbers. But numbers doesn't mean you elevate your team. That's difference between Stars (1s), all stars (2s), quality starters, and so on. McCollum is in that group quality starter group, which is why I compared him to Tobias Harris. They're just scratching the bottom of the door of making an all star team, but that doesn't mean they are all star talents. You're not winning anything if a guy like that is your #2, regardless of fit.

-Perceived value is still very important. Simmons turns 25 in a month. That's the very start of a lot of players' prime. His value hasn't been totally tanked. That's a complete overreaction.

-What are you even talking about that I haven't acknowledge Simmons poor shooting and bad fit? That's literally the thing I addressed before you even entered the topic and have mentioned it several times since. I've been talking about Simmons shooting leading to a bad fit with Embiid for years even beyond this topic.

-You brought Thybulle to say they don't really need Simmons because he has the same skills. That's why you brought him up. Whatever positives Simmons brings, his negatives are too much and Thybulle is close enough to Simmons' positives to make up for it. That's the logic behind your reasoning. Thybulle is fine, Simmons is better. There's a way bigger gap there that isn't easily replaceable. The reason I brought up Curry was to illustrate to you that the gap is much smaller in that comparison, showing you can get more shooting for cheap. It's a lot harder to replicate Simmons' other skills. Again, the raw numbers don't tell the total picture so while its nice Thybulle had a bunch of total steals, that doesn't make him Ben Simmons. TJ McConnell had a ton of steals too. That doesn't make him Gary Payton.

-You might not have suggested a one for one swap, but I wasn't addressing you first. You addressed me. I was responding to a suggested McCollum/Simmons trade and that trade itself works because the salaries match so that's what I'm going off of. Like I said in the post above, there would have to be more salary matching involved if other players were added. So everything I'm talking about is in regards to a straight swap until someone suggests a more detailed trade. I'm not trading Simmons unless I can see the avenue to being better. McCollum alone doesn't do that for me. Even with the bad fit, I'd still rather keep Simmons, explore other options or see if he can develop some kind of shot.

 

[The Q]

Blazers have reportedly told CJ he's not being traded this summer.

Mannix: McCollum Staying In Portland

Sports Illustrated’s Chris Mannix has poured cold water on a pending CJ McCollum trade.

www.blazersedge.com

idk how Portland becomes a finals contender without breaking those 2 up

They are woefully short on depth and spending their big mle on a guy who cannot shoot at all just killed them last year

 

[dtgold88]

"possible" he could end up on a number of teams.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

-First off, Simmons averages about $4 million a year more on his coming contract. So no CJ is not "just as expensive".
-McCollum "doesn't elevate his game or the team in any meaningful way"
Now you are just making things up. In his 6 years as a starter he is consistent 22 ppg scorer on +45% and 40% 3-pt shooting.
Thats 40% 3-pt shooting, as opposed to Simmons 15% 3-pt shooting.

-"Simmons has so much more talent"
You are stuck on his perceived potential. The problem is the potential card has been seriously devalued at this point.

Simmons does have tons of athletic ability and he is an extraordinary defender. But he is now a 5 year veteran who shoots 3 pointers and free throws at rate that makes him a liability to his own team! This is what you don't seem to want to acknowledge: at this point you have to try to hide Simmons on the offensive side which is a HUGE problem.

-I never said that Thybulle can do what Simmons can do overall. What I did say is that Thybulle is quite possibly a better perimeter and on-the-ball defender than Simmons, which is saying something as Simmons is top notch in that department.
Thybulle tied for 3rd is steals this year despite playing 500 fewer minutes than any others in the top 20, and finished 20th in blocks despite being a back up guard!!


You are correct in that Seth Curry is closer to approximating CJ than Thybulle is to Simmons but that was never the comparison to begin with. However if you want to compare Seth to CJ, the big difference is that Seth is a great shooter but CJ is much better at creating his own shot. Also Seth and CJ could co-exist in a back court, which Simmons has proven he can't based solely on his outside shooting.

-You are also correct in that Embid and Simmons are a bad fit. However there is no fix for this. Simmon's lack of outside shooting creates offensive log jams and hurts the offense as a whole. One of them needs to go if Philly wants to succeed.
It is "funny" that you say that Portland is shopping CJ "because he isn't good enough" (paraphrasing) when the truth is that they might consider trading him because he is too similar to Lillard. So the real situation is that Lillard and CJ have similar skillsets that make them somewhat redundant on their own team. It isn't his lack of talent as a #2 option, but the fact that you have 2 ball dominant scorers who create their own shots.

Also I never proposed a straight up trade between the two. I clearly stated that Portland could throw in the likes of Anfernee Simons or other player capable of contributing and/or a protected 1st.

It comes down to this: we both have some valid points (something you seem adverse to admit, but whatever) but you seem to think that Simmons' value is still what it was a couple of years ago. It isn't. We know what he is now: an excellent defender who can't shoot past 15 feet and is therefore a negative on the offensive end. His value based on potential isn't much as he is now a 5 year veteran.

For me it comes down to this: regardless of perceived individual value, a CJ for Simmons trade would theoretically help both teams significantly. It moves redundant skillsets for both teams into situations where they would be seemingly much better fits.

For you Simmons has retained his value despite his issues and still could play on the 6ers next year. For me, his value has been damaged and trying to integrate him into the Philly line up next year as a non-PG (you can't start him there again) would most likely just make things worse.

You can have all of the athletic ability and potential in the world, but you can't play guard in the NBA on under 15% 3-pt shooting and under 60% free throw shooting. Those numbers are huge career killers. You state that CJ is not a #2 option on a team, which is debatable (I propose that he certainly is on offense) but the problem with that is that Simmons isn't a #2 offensive option or probably not even a #3 offensive option at this point either.
If Simmons is to resurrect his career it needs to be somewhere where he plays in the frontcourt next to a C who can shoot outside. That isn't in Philly.

Not only a C that can shoot outside but one that doesn't command the ball much. The problem in Philly is they don't have a dominant scoring guard to take heat off both Ben and Joel. Ben with Dame or another guard of the like would be a much better fit.

 

[shopson67]

The salaries match up already. For any more to be added, both teams are gonna have to add other players. I doubt either team would include other quality players so it would be shuffling of some lower rotation players, so the deal would still largely be one for one. And it doesn't really matter if a team tells the player he won't be traded. Teams say that all the time. Philly just told the same thing to Simmons. You think they aren't fielding offers now?

Fielding offers and shopping him are two different things however.

 

[shopson67]

Stephen A said it, so we know it's not happening.

True, lol.

Golden State will likely make a push for someone, but Simmons doesn't seem the correct target given the shared attributes with Dray.

 

[shopson67]

The salaries match up already. For any more to be added, both teams are gonna have to add other players. I doubt either team would include other quality players so it would be shuffling of some lower rotation players, so the deal would still largely be one for one. And it doesn't really matter if a team tells the player he won't be traded. Teams say that all the time. Philly just told the same thing to Simmons. You think they aren't fielding offers now?

For one, picks can be added. Also, good or expiring salaries for bad with the secondary players (if included).

 

[shopson67]

idk how Portland becomes a finals contender without breaking those 2 up

They are woefully short on depth and spending their big mle on a guy who cannot shoot at all just killed them last year

Agreed, but they also need to keep the peace within their roster should a deal not happen. To publicly shop CJ could cause issues within the locker room should it not come to fruition.

 

[trojanfan12]

True, lol.

Golden State will likely make a push for someone, but Simmons doesn't seem the correct target given the shared attributes with Dray.

Dray's getting a little long in the tooth. Maybe they look to move him to the bench?

 

[shopson67]

Dray's getting a little long in the tooth. Maybe they look to move him to the bench?

I wouldn't expect that with 3 years at $24M+ left on his contract.

 

[returnofjakedog]

-I know his numbers. But numbers doesn't mean you elevate your team. That's difference between Stars (1s), all stars (2s), quality starters, and so on. McCollum is in that group quality starter group, which is why I compared him to Tobias Harris. They're just scratching the bottom of the door of making an all star team, but that doesn't mean they are all star talents. You're not winning anything if a guy like that is your #2, regardless of fit.

-Perceived value is still very important. Simmons turns 25 in a month. That's the very start of a lot of players' prime. His value hasn't been totally tanked. That's a complete overreaction.

-What are you even talking about that I haven't acknowledge Simmons poor shooting and bad fit? That's literally the thing I addressed before you even entered the topic and have mentioned it several times since. I've been talking about Simmons shooting leading to a bad fit with Embiid for years even beyond this topic.

-You brought Thybulle to say they don't really need Simmons because he has the same skills. That's why you brought him up. Whatever positives Simmons brings, his negatives are too much and Thybulle is close enough to Simmons' positives to make up for it. That's the logic behind your reasoning. Thybulle is fine, Simmons is better. There's a way bigger gap there that isn't easily replaceable. The reason I brought up Curry was to illustrate to you that the gap is much smaller in that comparison, showing you can get more shooting for cheap. It's a lot harder to replicate Simmons' other skills. Again, the raw numbers don't tell the total picture so while its nice Thybulle had a bunch of total steals, that doesn't make him Ben Simmons. TJ McConnell had a ton of steals too. That doesn't make him Gary Payton.

-You might not have suggested a one for one swap, but I wasn't addressing you first. You addressed me. I was responding to a suggested McCollum/Simmons trade and that trade itself works because the salaries match so that's what I'm going off of. Like I said in the post above, there would have to be more salary matching involved if other players were added. So everything I'm talking about is in regards to a straight swap until someone suggests a more detailed trade. I'm not trading Simmons unless I can see the avenue to being better. McCollum alone doesn't do that for me. Even with the bad fit, I'd still rather keep Simmons, explore other options or see if he can develop some kind of shot.

Yeah. Simmons really "elevated his team" this playoffs. No wait. I meant "killed his own team and cost them a shot at a championship".

Also, I can't be responsible for what others said/suggested. I suggested more than a 1 for 1 swap.

I never said that Thybulle has the same skillset. I said he is quite possibly a better perimeter defender and that is a high bar with Simmons being excellent on D.

No need for us to go over it any further. You think CJ's value is lower than I do, and you feel Simmons value is higher than I do. Either way, they both would probably fit better elsewhere.

I just don't see how a 5 year pro who shoots under 15% from 3 will ever be able to play a backcourt position on offense, and will need a good 3 point shooting C next to him. Anything else is a recipe for failure.

Have a good weekend!

 

[CitySushi]

Just curious to see what any Philly fans on here would want from the Warriors in a trade for Ben Simmons. I have no idea the kind of asking price he might have.

 

[The Q]

Just curious to see what any Philly fans on here would want from the Warriors in a trade for Ben Simmons. I have no idea the kind of asking price he might have.

I was told the warriors wouldn’t even do Wiggins for Simmons straight up.

so I doubt this is a productive question.

 

[msgkings322]

I was told the warriors wouldn’t even do Wiggins for Simmons straight up.

so I doubt this is a productive question.

He wasn't asking you, he asked Philly fans

 

[The Q]

He wasn't asking you, he asked Philly fans

here’s the reality. Due to the cap either green or Wiggins has to go in a Simmons trade