Von Miller says "no chance" he plays on the FT

[Rockinkuwait]

Yes and no imo.

Yes...WAS, imo it's a win/win for the team and player. Cousins gets more money than he's made in the previous 4 yrs combined, probably was not going to make that much as a FA this season either. "Skins get another look at a small sample player before investing $80-$100 mil.

NO...DEN, works for the team, not so much for the player...proven stud in the prime of his career, should be cashing in on $60 mil guaranteed, but forced to play for the tag.

Bottomline...the CBA is full of give and takes...this one favors the team most of the time.

I think Cousins would have gotten a lot more guaranteed. If he struggles this year and turns into turnover prone Cousins again, that franchise tag will really cost what he could have made in FA.

I would rather the franchise tag be a 2 year guarantee at the top 5 salaries or something personally, but see no reason for the NFL to change it from favoring the league if it isn't something the NFLPA wants to bargain for. As it affects just a tiny percentage of their union, it isn't worth bargaining over to them strongly, so they give here and take elsewhere.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I think Cousins would have gotten a lot more guaranteed. If he struggles this year and turns into turnover prone Cousins again, that franchise tag will really cost what he could have made in FA.

I would rather the franchise tag be a 2 year guarantee at the top 5 salaries or something personally, but see no reason for the NFL to change it from favoring the league if it isn't something the NFLPA wants to bargain for. As it affects just a tiny percentage of their union, it isn't worth bargaining over to them strongly, so they give here and take elsewhere.

Cousins...maybe you and CD are right on his FA contract...he did have a very good 1yr as a starter, but I'm still not that confident that he would've...Fitz is a lot older, so I know it's not apples to apples, but he had a comparable yr and the Jets didn't like $20 mil per at all.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Cousins...maybe you and CD are right on his FA contract...he did have a very good 1yr as a starter, but I'm still not that confident that he would've...Fitz is a lot older, so I know it's not apples to apples, but he had a comparable yr and the Jets didn't like $20 mil per at all.

Yeah the age is the difference for sure and that's a huge reason. Fitz has that type of year in his first year as a starter, he gets a great deal. That's what Fitz got early into 2011. Fitz at 28 after his first good year where he really took the starting job at the start of the year (not as good as Cousins though), gets a huge deal from Buff (equiv of 31 mil guaranteed today).

Fitz now, you are looking at a 34 yr old having a year that was just so much better than what he showed you the previous 10 and still really inconsistent as well through the season. Cousins especially showing off his improvement throughout the year, is the QB who may be elite. That's what you pay for IMO, and that's a huge gap.


I guess I see it more like Matt Cassel's deal or GB locking up Aaron Rodgers 5 games into his starting career. If Cousins hit the market, he would have been easily the top FA QB since Peyton.

I'd have been more than happy if my Eagles offered him a bit more than Osweiler money in FA. I think a few other teams out there would have been as well. Fitz... well we'd better still be making that move for the QB of our future.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Yeah the age is the difference for sure and that's a huge reason. Fitz has that type of year in his first year as a starter, he gets a great deal. That's what Fitz got early into 2011. Fitz at 28 after his first good year where he really took the starting job at the start of the year (not as good as Cousins though), gets a huge deal from Buff (equiv of 31 mil guaranteed today).

Fitz now, you are looking at a 34 yr old having a year that was just so much better than what he showed you the previous 10 and still really inconsistent as well through the season. Cousins especially showing off his improvement throughout the year, is the QB who may be elite. That's what you pay for IMO, and that's a huge gap.


I guess I see it more like Matt Cassel's deal or GB locking up Aaron Rodgers 5 games into his starting career. If Cousins hit the market, he would have been easily the top FA QB since Peyton.

I'd have been more than happy if my Eagles offered him a bit more than Osweiler money in FA. I think a few other teams out there would have been as well. Fitz... well we'd better still be making that move for the QB of our future.

Wow...he impressed you for certain. More than in own team actually.

This is what you can't answer off one season, and why I think WAS paused on a long term deal.

Is he the guy that was averaging 30+ the last 3 or 4 games of the year? Or, is he the guy that put up 18 @ home in the playoffs?

To be fair, I'm going to say he's probably somewhere in the middle. Let's see how he does with a strong WR/TE corp in yr 2 and DCs have had the whole offseason to dissect what he does well.

Don't get me wrong...I like Cousins, smart, and accurate. I think he has a long career in the NFL, but much like Fitz...when the lights were the brightest, his performance was considerably less than his peak.

My original statement...I didn't think he would make as much as the tag in '16 if he hit the FA mkt...I stand by that...but I concede that his guarantee would've netted more than $20 mil overall...how much more?...I'm not sure.

 

[xBxtxDx]

Sticky situation in Denver for sure. Don't see this working out well for the Broncos at all. Super bad off season for them.

How is it a super bad off season? Has it been ideal? No, but I would not call it super bad. Though I will say that I have a very real desire to firebomb McDonald's right now. To be completely honest though, that desire has more to do with Ronald McDonald and an irrational fear of clowns than the Broncos off season and whether or not I think it was good or bad.

 

[xBxtxDx]

He's not dumb, he'd play 6 games just so it's forced to toll.

The thing is though, he is asking for that kind of money now, so what does it really matter?

 

[Fountain City Blues]

The thing is though, he is asking for that kind of money now, so what does it really matter?

It doesn't- which makes this whole pissing contest academic. Designed that way.

 

[xBxtxDx]

It doesn't- which makes this whole pissing contest academic. Designed that way.

So you are saying I should have just thrown some nonsensical comment about my opinion of the Von Miller contract dispute and thrown it out there and walked away and waited for others to make random comments back so I could reply with irrational thoughts until it broke down into us calling each other names?

My bad!

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Wow...he impressed you for certain. More than in own team actually.

This is what you can't answer off one season, and why I think WAS paused on a long term deal.

Is he the guy that was averaging 30+ the last 3 or 4 games of the year? Or, is he the guy that put up 18 @ home in the playoffs?

To be fair, I'm going to say he's probably somewhere in the middle. Let's see how he does with a strong WR/TE corp in yr 2 and DCs have had the whole offseason to dissect what he does well.

Don't get me wrong...I like Cousins, smart, and accurate. I think he has a long career in the NFL, but much like Fitz...when the lights were the brightest, his performance was considerably less than his peak.

My original statement...I didn't think he would make as much as the tag in '16 if he hit the FA mkt...I stand by that...but I concede that his guarantee would've netted more than $20 mil overall...how much more?...I'm not sure.

Not saying he's elite, just the potential is there as much as it is for any other QB who isn't there already that you could get on your team. And the franchise tag doesn't mean he isn't valued as having great potential to me. He's on the tag just like the Saints put on Brees, and the Colts put on Manning. The same one Von Miller is on. I fully agree with you Washington made the perfect move. His value is up, if he's set on letting FA determine his value, I'd lock him up too. It is win win for the team. His value after last season in the open market is what? Maybe 10% higher than this year in FA if he repeats that kind of year or does a bit better? Not a bad problem to worry about. But you completely eliminate the risk of any guaranteed money if he fails to repeat. I agree, one year RGIII can look better than Wilson, and it can make a complete 180.

I'd say contract 2 years, 40 mil guaranteed (3 mil more than Brock's deal in the same FA market) would have been the low side. If you are spending 37 mil for Brock for his 2 year test, how much more do you think Cousins is worth? Oliver Vernon isn't worth double the guaranteed money of Watt. But Vernon waited for FA to get open market value. Watt didn't.

You are right, there are things you worry about, BIG THINGS, but with every QB in those situations you have questions... Is Rodgers the guy that throws efficiently or the guy that loses games late? Is Cassell a pro-bowl QB or the one in charge of the biggest drop in passing offense ever? Can Peyton or Brees even throw the football again? Those guys got paid because they may be elite on their new teams. Fitz isn't there.

And it was just 16 by the offense (with a safety) in his first playoff game
Brady 16
Manning 16
Cam 10
Palmer 14 (4 QB's in AFC/NFC champ games)
Elway 17
Romo 13
Eli 0
Big Ben 17 (in regulation)

It's a game, in his first ever playoffs on the road in GB in January (think it was warmer than expected but windy if I remember). His line played like utter crap, his D just imploded. Hard to pick a guy on that team I thought outplayed him (Jordan Reed I guess would be one). I thought he played pretty decent. Not like Fitz in his "Win and in" last game of the year.



The D-cord tape, this is just me personally, but I like seeing a QB improve throughout the year as opponents do get more tape on him (which he did). Also I buy that more with a QB running playing differently. Spread option, Tebow, RGIII, one read QB's, more-so than what a more conventional NFL passer does. Also while the D has tape on him, a flip side is this is his first season with an off-season of being the #1 QB in camp and through pre-season (wasn't named the season starter till after the Week 3 pre-season ravens game last year). Again, just me there. I do see your point too.


And I agree 100%... He isn't a known commodity, you make excellent points on the worries there. It's a glass half full vs. half empty scenario. But I think with the open market values on QB's you hope can be elite, he'd be getting 20+ a year for a 2 year guarantee if he hit that market.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

So you are saying I should have just thrown some nonsensical comment about my opinion of the Von Miller contract dispute and thrown it out there and walked away and waited for others to make random comments back so I could reply with irrational thoughts until it broke down into us calling each other names?

My bad!

Mmm, no, not at all. Was talking about the pissing contest between Miller and Elway in regards to accrued seasons,franchise tags, and future contract. I just posted the thread because it's newsworthy in the dead part of the offseason.

IOW, it's unlikely Miller misses games, it's unlikely the July 15th deadline is missed, amongst other things.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Not saying he's elite, just the potential is there as much as it is for any other QB who isn't there already that you could get on your team. And the franchise tag doesn't mean he isn't valued as having great potential to me. He's on the tag just like the Saints put on Brees, and the Colts put on Manning. The same one Von Miller is on. I fully agree with you Washington made the perfect move. His value is up, if he's set on letting FA determine his value, I'd lock him up too. It is win win for the team. His value after last season in the open market is what? Maybe 10% higher than this year in FA if he repeats that kind of year or does a bit better? Not a bad problem to worry about. But you completely eliminate the risk of any guaranteed money if he fails to repeat. I agree, one year RGIII can look better than Wilson, and it can make a complete 180.

I'd say contract 2 years, 40 mil guaranteed (3 mil more than Brock's deal in the same FA market) would have been the low side. If you are spending 37 mil for Brock for his 2 year test, how much more do you think Cousins is worth? Oliver Vernon isn't worth double the guaranteed money of Watt. But Vernon waited for FA to get open market value. Watt didn't.

You are right, there are things you worry about, BIG THINGS, but with every QB in those situations you have questions... Is Rodgers the guy that throws efficiently or the guy that loses games late? Is Cassell a pro-bowl QB or the one in charge of the biggest drop in passing offense ever? Can Peyton or Brees even throw the football again? Those guys got paid because they may be elite on their new teams. Fitz isn't there.

And it was just 16 by the offense (with a safety) in his first playoff game
Brady 16
Manning 16
Cam 10
Palmer 14 (4 QB's in AFC/NFC champ games)
Elway 17
Romo 13
Eli 0
Big Ben 17 (in regulation)

It's a game, in his first ever playoffs on the road in GB in January (think it was warmer than expected but windy if I remember). His line played like utter crap, his D just imploded. Hard to pick a guy on that team I thought outplayed him (Jordan Reed I guess would be one). I thought he played pretty decent. Not like Fitz in his "Win and in" last game of the year.



The D-cord tape, this is just me personally, but I like seeing a QB improve throughout the year as opponents do get more tape on him (which he did). Also I buy that more with a QB running playing differently. Spread option, Tebow, RGIII, one read QB's, more-so than what a more conventional NFL passer does. Also while the D has tape on him, a flip side is this is his first season with an off-season of being the #1 QB in camp and through pre-season (wasn't named the season starter till after the Week 3 pre-season ravens game last year). Again, just me there. I do see your point too.


And I agree 100%... He isn't a known commodity, you make excellent points on the worries there. It's a glass half full vs. half empty scenario. But I think with the open market values on QB's you hope can be elite, he'd be getting 20+ a year for a 2 year guarantee if he hit that market.

You really need to learn to shorten up your posts.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

You really need to learn to shorten up your posts.

lol Bolded the short version. Rest is just info backing it up.

 

[xBxtxDx]

Mmm, no, not at all. Was talking about the pissing contest between Miller and Elway in regards to accrued seasons,franchise tags, and future contract. I just posted the thread because it's newsworthy in the dead part of the offseason.

IOW, it's unlikely Miller misses games, it's unlikely the July 15th deadline is missed, amongst other things.

Ya know, your rational thoughts and thought out opinions not biased by your allegiance to Kansas City are taking their toll on me and I wish you would stop.

 

[handicappers]

I happen to think it's childish. I guess in a sad way it's kind of comical? Grown men acting like little bitches. I didn't get my way so, so and so sucked...

You're the expert on "grown men acting like little bitches". bwwahhhahahahaha

 

[NWPATSFAN]

You're the expert on "grown men acting like little bitches". bwwahhhahahahaha

I see you're still stalking me
get a life homocapper

 

[handicappers]

 

[jakedog56]

lol Bolded the short version. Rest is just info backing it up.

Long posts are fine as long as they are well thought out and written. Rock seems to be quite good at the long post IMO.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Not saying he's elite, just the potential is there as much as it is for any other QB who isn't there already that you could get on your team. And the franchise tag doesn't mean he isn't valued as having great potential to me. He's on the tag just like the Saints put on Brees, and the Colts put on Manning. The same one Von Miller is on. I fully agree with you Washington made the perfect move. His value is up, if he's set on letting FA determine his value, I'd lock him up too. It is win win for the team. His value after last season in the open market is what? Maybe 10% higher than this year in FA if he repeats that kind of year or does a bit better? Not a bad problem to worry about. But you completely eliminate the risk of any guaranteed money if he fails to repeat. I agree, one year RGIII can look better than Wilson, and it can make a complete 180.

I'd say contract 2 years, 40 mil guaranteed (3 mil more than Brock's deal in the same FA market) would have been the low side. If you are spending 37 mil for Brock for his 2 year test, how much more do you think Cousins is worth? Oliver Vernon isn't worth double the guaranteed money of Watt. But Vernon waited for FA to get open market value. Watt didn't.

You are right, there are things you worry about, BIG THINGS, but with every QB in those situations you have questions... Is Rodgers the guy that throws efficiently or the guy that loses games late? Is Cassell a pro-bowl QB or the one in charge of the biggest drop in passing offense ever? Can Peyton or Brees even throw the football again? Those guys got paid because they may be elite on their new teams. Fitz isn't there.

And it was just 16 by the offense (with a safety) in his first playoff game
Brady 16
Manning 16
Cam 10
Palmer 14 (4 QB's in AFC/NFC champ games)
Elway 17
Romo 13
Eli 0
Big Ben 17 (in regulation)

It's a game, in his first ever playoffs on the road in GB in January (think it was warmer than expected but windy if I remember). His line played like utter crap, his D just imploded. Hard to pick a guy on that team I thought outplayed him (Jordan Reed I guess would be one). I thought he played pretty decent. Not like Fitz in his "Win and in" last game of the year.



The D-cord tape, this is just me personally, but I like seeing a QB improve throughout the year as opponents do get more tape on him (which he did). Also I buy that more with a QB running playing differently. Spread option, Tebow, RGIII, one read QB's, more-so than what a more conventional NFL passer does. Also while the D has tape on him, a flip side is this is his first season with an off-season of being the #1 QB in camp and through pre-season (wasn't named the season starter till after the Week 3 pre-season ravens game last year). Again, just me there. I do see your point too.


And I agree 100%... He isn't a known commodity, you make excellent points on the worries there. It's a glass half full vs. half empty scenario. But I think with the open market values on QB's you hope can be elite, he'd be getting 20+ a year for a 2 year guarantee if he hit that market.

Good post...

Unless I'm way off base..the playoff game was in WAS.

To put a cap on Cousins...I feel HOU made a desperation move with Osweiler in terms of the contract, but to pry a player away from his current team, most of the time you have to over pay and I really think they overpaid. So if another team wanted Cousins that badly, your contract numbers are probably right...but I'm on the nay about him becoming elite...Matt Ryan good...maybe.

In either case, we agree WAS made the right call with the tag. I'm looking forward to the season.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Good post...

Unless I'm way off base..the playoff game was in WAS.

To put a cap on Cousins...I feel HOU made a desperation move with Osweiler in terms of the contract, but to pry a player away from his current team, most of the time you have to over pay and I really think they overpaid. So if another team wanted Cousins that badly, your contract numbers are probably right...but I'm on the nay about him becoming elite...Matt Ryan good...maybe.

In either case, we agree WAS made the right call with the tag. I'm looking forward to the season.

You are right, lol. division winner, my bad.

And I think overpaying is relative to your cap space, if you can pay and not put yourself in a bad cap situation, which Houston isn't for the next couple years, then it's fine to outbid for a need. No big name FA's coming up next year (Wilfork, Pleasant, Dunn ). If after 2 years he isn't playing well, off he goes... if he is, well you are paying him his worth on that deal. If Denver had paid him that amount, with their cap constraints, I think that could be considered overpaying. Just my thoughts on it.


As for FA value, if you have 2, (like Osweiler), that drives the price. Fitz only had 1 team really. But Osweiler, I think you have Philly, Wash, Hou, STL, Cle, and SF all putting him as their top option at the QB position. (Den and NY probably wouldn't have the cap flexibility to do so).

 

[ATL96Steeler]

You are right, lol. division winner, my bad.

And I think overpaying is relative to your cap space, if you can pay and not put yourself in a bad cap situation, which Houston isn't for the next couple years, then it's fine to outbid for a need. No big name FA's coming up next year (Wilfork, Pleasant, Dunn ). If after 2 years he isn't playing well, off he goes... if he is, well you are paying him his worth on that deal. If Denver had paid him that amount, with their cap constraints, I think that could be considered overpaying. Just my thoughts on it.


As for FA value, if you have 2, (like Osweiler), that drives the price. Fitz only had 1 team really. But Osweiler, I think you have Philly, Wash, Hou, STL, Cle, and SF all putting him as their top option at the QB position. (Den and NY probably wouldn't have the cap flexibility to do so).

imo over paying is paying well above market for potential vs proven results....I understand what you're saying, HOU could afford it, but in the NFL with a hard cap, you can't over pay. For DEN to offer the same contract they would have to release players to make it fit, even then they would likely face dead money issues that would keep them in cap hell for another yr or two.

With Von Miller's deal looming, the reality was DEN simply couldn't afford that contract even if they wanted to give to him.

FA value...definitely Osweiler had more than one suitor which does drive up the price, but again, we're talking about an unproven commodity. CLE, imo no, they were too high in the draft, and too low on the competitive scale to offer a HOU type deal...Philly could, not certain about WAS, and the Rams have cap issues themselves so I'll say PHI, HOU, maybe SF (if they wanted to eat 7 or 8 mil in dead money to axe Kaep) would be legit suitors aside from DEN.