Top 32 tournament 3B Mathews vs Robinson

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

3Basemen Bracket is:

1 M Schmidt 6
32 D DeCinces 0

16 S Bando 3
17 D Evans 7

8 P Molitor 10
25 H Groh 2

9 R Santo 7
24 D Wright 1

4 G Brett 12
29 J McGraw 0

13 B Bell 6
20 J Collins 0

5 C Jones 13
28 M Williams 0

12 G Nettles 8
21 S Hack 3

3 W Boggs 13
30 D White 0

14 F Baker 9
19 R Cey 1

6 A Beltre 13
27 L Cross 0

11 E Martinez 11
22 T Harrah 1

2 E Mathews 11
31 G Gaetti 0

15 K Boyer 7
18 R Ventura 5

7 B Robinson 9
26 L Gardner 0

10 S Rolen 9
23 B Elliott 0

1 M Schmidt 15
17 D Evans 0

8 P Molitor 4 advances on seed
9 R Santo 4

4 G Brett 13
13 B Bell 0

5 C Jones 7
12 G Nettles 1

3 W Boggs 9
14 F Baker 2

6 A Beltre 10
11 E Martinez 2

2 E Mathews 11
15 K Boyer 0

7 B Robinson 6
10 S Rolen 5

1 M Schmidt 10
8 P Molitor 0

4 G Brett 9
5 C Jones 2

3 W Boggs 8
6 A Beltre 5

2 E Mathews
7 B Robinson

1 M Schmidt
4 G Brett

3 W Boggs

 

[obxyankeefan]

Eddie Mathews Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Gary Gaetti and Ken Boyer 22-0

Brooks Robinson Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Larry Gardner and Scott Rolen 15-5

 

[Voltaire26]

Why is Pie Traynor not in this tournament? Hall of Fame 3B

Pie Traynor Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[Howie115]

If 3B was a premium defensive position, you could make a case for Brooks continuing. He was that good on D. But Mathews' huge edges in OPS+, OBP and power win out.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

BA- Robinson(pretty much a tie)
power- Mathews(NOT CLOSE)
BB- Mathews(NOT CLOSE)
Defense- Robinson(NOT CLOSE)
SO- Robinson(NOT CLOSE)
postseason- Robinson(NOT CLOSE) BUT Mathews only played 16 games

As expected this is offense Vs defense... Although Robinson was better offensively than I realized, but because of the on base skills and power skills of Mathews being so NOT CLOSE, and because I don't consider 3B a defensive PREMIUM position, I have to go Mathews... But this is closer than I first thought...

 

[obxyankeefan]

Why is Pie Traynor not in this tournament? Hall of Fame 3B

Pie Traynor Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Rankings were done by BRWAR. DeClines who was ranked 32nd, had a BRWAR of 41.2. Traynor's BRWAR was only 36.6.

 

[calsnowskier]

Why is Pie Traynor not in this tournament? Hall of Fame 3B

Pie Traynor Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Quick glance at his BR page says he would not have made a real dent in this tourney anyway...

 

[obxyankeefan]

Pie Traynor is one of those weird ones that everybody use to say was the best 3b ever, but advanced stats do not favor him.


People going off of name recognition might have had him knock off Edgar Martinez or Nettles.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Pie Traynor is one of those weird ones that everybody use to say was the best 3b ever, but advanced stats do not favor him.


People going off of name recognition might have had him knock off Edgar Martinez or Nettles.

The guy had a 17 year 162 game average of .320 and over 100 RBI per. I'd take him over Nettles in a heartbeat

 

[DragonfromTO]

The guy had a 17 year 162 game average of .320 and over 100 RBI per. I'd take him over Nettles in a heartbeat

Yeah, but you know how in the Collins thread the adjusted league batting average of .273 was described by someone as being "extremely high"? For Traynor's career the average was .294!

 

[obxyankeefan]

The guy had a 17 year 162 game average of .320 and over 100 RBI per. I'd take him over Nettles in a heartbeat

That's what I was saying, he would probably fit in around 10th best 3b of all time, but the advanced stats do not favor his career at all.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah, but you know how in the Collins thread the adjusted league batting average of .273 was described by someone as being "extremely high"? For Traynor's career the average was .294!

I have said in many of these threads that i really have trouble analyzing the pre expansion years, especially the pre integration years... i have seen people bring up how modern baseball pitchers throw much harder, and how modern players seem to be bigger stronger faster...

Again, i do think the best players would be great no matter when they played, but i do think their stats got padded more than stats do now... I find it interesting that there has been no .400 BA since expansion..

 

[DragonfromTO]

I have said in many of these threads that i really have trouble analyzing the pre expansion years, especially the pre integration years... i have seen people bring up how modern baseball pitchers throw much harder, and how modern players seem to be bigger stronger faster...

Again, i do think the best players would be great no matter when they played, but i do think their stats got padded more than stats do now... I find it interesting that there has been no .400 BA since expansion..

Yeah, but there was only one .400+ batter in the 30 years prior to expansion too. I don't think your general argument is wrong, but I'm not sure there isn't something else at play as well.

While I honestly haven't thought about it in much detail I suspect that smaller ballparks and better athletes with better technique and better equipment covering more defensive ground within them (kind of like how there's less open space on a hockey rink now with the players being so much bigger and faster) are factors as well. I'll give it a little thought and see what else I think of.

 

[calsnowskier]

I have said in many of these threads that i really have trouble analyzing the pre expansion years, especially the pre integration years... i have seen people bring up how modern baseball pitchers throw much harder, and how modern players seem to be bigger stronger faster...

Again, i do think the best players would be great no matter when they played, but i do think their stats got padded more than stats do now... I find it interesting that there has been no .400 BA since expansion..

I think the older days are more stat-ruined because it was very difficult for players to make good livings playing the game. I suspect (just my WAG, no research to back this up) that the difference between the best player in the league and the the worst in (for example) 1915 was MUCH larger than the gap between the best player today and the worst.

Babe Ruth got paid. He could concentrate on the game. Joe Schmoe was hardly paid and had to hold down other jobs. Also, more players probably washed out of the minors for the same reason. There simply was not the same pot of gold at the end of the rainbow as there is today.

Conversely, the MLB MINIMUM today is about 15X the average salary of an American worker. No MLB player has to work construction in the off-season. The pot of gold today, even if a kid only gets a year or two of MLB time, is definitely financially worthwhile. 2 years at MLB minimum wage is almost 900K. That can hold down the fort for a LONG time if the money is managed properly. Heck, if the guy is single and/or extremely frugal, that CAN be retirement-level money.

Dont discount the effects of finances on the level of competition.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think the older days are more stat-ruined because it was very difficult for players to make good livings playing the game. I suspect (just my WAG, no research to back this up) that the difference between the best player in the league and the the worst in (for example) 1915 was MUCH larger than the gap between the best player today and the worst.

Babe Ruth got paid. He could concentrate on the game. Joe Schmoe was hardly paid and had to hold down other jobs. Also, more players probably washed out of the minors for the same reason. There simply was not the same pot of gold at the end of the rainbow as there is today.

Conversely, the MLB MINIMUM today is about 15X the average salary of an American worker. No MLB player has to work construction in the off-season. The pot of gold today, even if a kid only gets a year or two of MLB time, is definitely financially worthwhile. 2 years at MLB minimum wage is almost 900K. That can hold down the fort for a LONG time if the money is managed properly. Heck, if the guy is single and/or extremely frugal, that CAN be retirement-level money.

Dont discount the effects of finances on the level of competition.

I don't doubt that that is a factor.... and certainly a domino affect, the more you are paid the more you will work on it and become bigger, faster, stronger.... But i don't think it is the only thing... pre expansion years you played the same players all the time.... how many pitchers are GREAT after the 20th time around the SAME lineup?? and of course pre integration lacked some of the MOST athletic people on earth...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

but here in this experiment we are trying to judge who is better... it is very difficult when numbers are padded so much in a certain way because of the lack of competition or whatever...

 

[obxyankeefan]

Going more with what Cal said

Satchel Paige talks about having the choice as a teenager of playing a game or staring at the back end of an ass all day. He stated it was one of the hardest decisions he ever made because if he failed as a ball player he couldn't support his family. Satchel was talking about playing in the NLB which didn't pay as good as the MLB.

I have always been of the opinion that the top players in the MLB and NLB where every bit as good as the top players today, but the lesser known players were at a lower level than their counterparts today.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Going more with what Cal said

Satchel Paige talks about having the choice as a teenager of playing a game or staring at the back end of an ass all day. He stated it was one of the hardest decisions he ever made because if he failed as a ball player he couldn't support his family. Satchel was talking about playing in the NLB which didn't pay as good as the MLB.

I have always been of the opinion that the top players in the MLB and NLB where every bit as good as the top players today, but the lesser known players were at a lower level than their counterparts today.

But again, how good were they?? if we are to assume that the lesser players back then were weaker, which i do.... then that just shows what i am questioning... that makes there stats padded more than more modern... so in an experiment like this how good were they???

 

[calsnowskier]

That's why you need a weighted "+" Stat like OPS+. It is a normalized relative stat that can be compared generationally.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

That's why you need a weighted "+" Stat like OPS+. It is a normalized relative stat that can be compared generationally.

Except OPS+ is still OPS... it is a power based stat... thing is the olden players nobody hit home runs... so the lack of home runs didnt weaken their OPS+... the knocks on OPS is that it over values players who walk and over values the HR... OPS+ does the same, but it overvalues times more...