Top 10 poll: #7 player ever

[calsnowskier]

Consider WAR, WAR 7, and OPS+ for the three of them:
Hornsby - 127, 73.9, 175 (2,259 games)
Speaker - 134.9, 62.7, 158 (2,789 games)
Wagner - 131, 65.5, 151 (2,794 games)

I think Hornsby is slightly above the other two and Speaker and Wagner are almost identical.

Very similar to Wagner. And near contemporaries. And both were accumulators (thus their lackluster WAR7s)

 

[LHG]

Very similar to Wagner. And near contemporaries. And both were accumulators (thus their lackluster WAR7s)

Be that as it may, those WAR7s are about as good as it is going to get moving forward. Not much better than those left.

And the reason I put Hornsby in a class above them is 500 fewer games. For comparison, Hornsby has a WAR average of .056 per game compared to .048 for Speaker and .047 for Wagner. That ain't small. If Hornsby kept that average while playing the same amount of games as Wagner, his career WAR would be 156.5. He also has a higher WAR7 compared to them. That and his OPS+ is 17 to 24 points higher than theirs.

 

[calsnowskier]

I just nominated Speaker as an “Other”. Not because I really think he NEEDS to be considered at this spot, but because he absolutely belongs in the argument if Hornsby and Wagner are considered.

 

[calsnowskier]

Be that as it may, those WAR7s are about as good as it is going to get moving forward. Not much better than those left.

Totally agree. And he is an accumulator anyway, so the WAR7 is less an issue since that isn’t necessarily his argument.

 

[LHG]

Totally agree. And he is an accumulator anyway, so the WAR7 is less an issue since that isn’t necessarily his argument.

Oh, I was expanding my statement while you were responding.

 

[LHG]

By the way, Ty Cobb, whom we crowned 6th best player of all time, is 4th all time in career doubles, with 724 in 13,103 PAs. Just above him? Stan Musial with 725 in 12,721. First all time? Tris Speaker with 792 in 12,020.

 

[calsnowskier]

By the way, Ty Cobb, whom we crowned 6th best player of all time, is 4th all time in career doubles, with 724 in 13,103 PAs. Just above him? Stan Musial with 725 in 12,721. First all time? Tris Speaker with 792 in 12,020.

And I do personally believe that doubles are the most under-rated stat in the game. Typically, any double hit will clear the bases, so they are just a hair below a HR.

 

[msgkings322]

And I do personally believe that doubles are the most under-rated stat in the game. Typically, any double hit will clear the bases, so they are just a hair below a HR.

This argument falls apart if you watch the Giants hit a double with a guy on first.

 

[msgkings322]

@calsnowskier been yakking with my baseball obsessed dad about this: we need to add Yogi Berra and Warren Spahn to the nomination list

 

[msgkings322]

I just nominated Speaker as an “Other”. Not because I really think he NEEDS to be considered at this spot, but because he absolutely belongs in the argument if Hornsby and Wagner are considered.

How far do you plan to go with this? Top 10 leaves so many greats off. If you're up for it we should go to 20. You can shorten the time frames if you want, but this is fun, don't want it to end at just 10

 

[MilkSpiller22]

@calsnowskier been yakking with my baseball obsessed dad about this: we need to add Yogi Berra and Warren Spahn to the nomination list

I really need to figure out a formula or algorithm or whatever to find the equalizer between eras... it is so annoying to me that generally people look at all these stats that show how amazing the elite were pre color barrier...

instead of saying, well nobody hit 400 after 1941... that is not a coincidence... and that is not saying players were better back then...

why can't we accurately adjust based on how the game changed...

I said this in an earlier thread that we don't appreciate the best players from 1962-1990. to much... and no, the elite players were not worse than the elite players of any other time period...

 

[msgkings322]

I really need to figure out a formula or algorithm or whatever to find the equalizer between eras... it is so annoying to me that generally people look at all these stats that show how amazing the elite were pre color barrier...

instead of saying, well nobody hit 400 after 1941... that is not a coincidence... and that is not saying players were better back then...

why can't we accurately adjust based on how the game changed...

I said this in an earlier thread that we don't appreciate the best players from 1962-1990. to much... and no, the elite players were not worse than the elite players of any other time period...

That's the whole point of this and why it's fun, making arguments about different eras and styles of player and 'cheating' and all the rest. No other sport has this rich of a space for discussion, because it's been around forever.

And yeah I been posting here that a guy like Mike Schmidt never gets talked about as an all time great but he's easy top 25 maybe top 20, right in that 60s to 80s era. To be fair the early 60s get love with Koufax and Mays and Mantle though. Late 60s to late 80s not many all timers get love: Schmidt, Bench, Ryan, Morgan, Rose, Seaver, Carlton, Yaz...that's about it. No top 10 guys.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

That's the whole point of this and why it's fun, making arguments about different eras and styles of player and 'cheating' and all the rest. No other sport has this rich of a space for discussion, because it's been around forever.

sure, but when at the end we as a collective conclude the pre color barrier players are better, don't you think that just proves that we can't analyze that period well??

and it is not just us.... all lists are like this...

and yet, the next problem is who do you leave off??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

take wade Boggs.... if he played with ty Cobb... he would be one of the all time greats... with his numbers,...

 

[msgkings322]

sure, but when at the end we as a collective conclude the pre color barrier players are better, don't you think that just proves that we can't analyze that period well??

and it is not just us.... all lists are like this...

and yet, the next problem is who do you leave off??

It proves this is fun!

Also I see no evidence we are giving more love to the pre-color barrier era. Top 6 has 3 black players and only 2 pre-barrier

 

[msgkings322]

take wade Boggs.... if he played with ty Cobb... he would be one of the all time greats... with his numbers,...

Boggs lifetime OPS .858

That ain't Cobb.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It proves this is fun!

Also I see no evidence we are giving more love to the pre-color barrier era. Top 6 has 3 black players and only 2 pre-barrier

3 pre- barrier...

and the 2 top players in this run off look like they will both be pre...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Boggs lifetime OPS .858

That ain't Cobb.

I was not saying Boggs was better than Cobb,... Cobb would have still had the longevity... but Boggs would have easily been a top 5 player of the pre-ruthian period... I will admit that that is a pointless experiment,.... not really sure what the point I was trying to make with that one was...

 

[msgkings322]

W

3 pre- barrier...

and the 2 top players in this run off look like they will both be pre...

Williams played over half his career after 1947

 

[msgkings322]

I was not saying Boggs was better than Cobb,... Cobb would have still had the longevity... but Boggs would have easily been a top 5 player of the pre-ruthian period... I will admit that that is a pointless experiment,.... not really sure what the point I was trying to make with that one was...

Look at Boggs numbers again. He ain't all that. Dude had 118 home runs and well past the 'dead ball' era. Highest MVP finish was 4th in the voting. Speaker, Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Hornsby, all those old timers much better.

Wade Boggs Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Wade Boggs. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com