Top 10 poll: #7 player ever

[calsnowskier]

I want to make sure I am not trying to argue against Gehrig as an all time great. I fully believe he is an inner-circle HOFer. I just don’t see him better than a lot of the other names getting thrown around at this point.

Seriously not trying to shade on the Yankees (they are what they are), but I think a LOT of his god-rep comes from him being a Yankee. If he were a Pirate or a Senator or a Cub, would he be in consideration for this slot?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I want to make sure I am not trying to argue against Gehrig as an all time great. I fully believe he is an inner-circle HOFer. I just don’t see him better than a lot of the other names getting thrown around at this point.

Seriously not trying to shade on the Yankees (they are what they are), but I think a LOT of his god-rep comes from him being a Yankee. If he were a Pirate or a Senator or a Cub, would he be in consideration for this slot?

nah... i see him in the same breath as them all... gehrig has better offensive numbers than Hornsby, and look at Gehrig's playoff numbers..

Hornsby and gehrig's career overlapped for most of it...

the problem with Gehrig is that he was in the same lineup as Ruth, and it was always ruth's team... and that he was a first baseman... which we naturally ding because it is not a premium defensive postition...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Regular Season
Playoffs

Rk	Player	Age	From	To	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	TB	GIDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1	Lou Gehrig	20-36	1923	1939	2164	9665	8001	1888	2721	534	163	493	1995	102	102	1508	790	.340	.447	.632	1.080	179	5060	2	45	107		114
2	Rogers Hornsby	19-41	1915	1937	2259	9481	8173	1579	2930	541	169	301	1584	135	81	1038	679	.358	.434	.577	1.010	175	4712	3	48	216		54

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Rk	Player	Age	From	To	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GIDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1	Lou Gehrig	23-35	1926	1938	34	150	119	30	43	8	3	10	35	0	1	26	17	.361	.483	.731	1.214	87		2	1		3
2	Rogers Hornsby	30-33	1926	1929	12	53	49	6	12	2	1	0	5	1	0	3	10	.245	.288	.327	.615	16		0	1		0

 

[DHoey]

I want to make sure I am not trying to argue against Gehrig as an all time great. I fully believe he is an inner-circle HOFer. I just don’t see him better than a lot of the other names getting thrown around at this point.

Seriously not trying to shade on the Yankees (they are what they are), but I think a LOT of his god-rep comes from him being a Yankee. If he were a Pirate or a Senator or a Cub, would he be in consideration for this slot?

Yes. He would be the face of whatever other franchise you can pick. He wont his second MVP after Ruth left.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I want to make sure I am not trying to argue against Gehrig as an all time great. I fully believe he is an inner-circle HOFer. I just don’t see him better than a lot of the other names getting thrown around at this point.

Seriously not trying to shade on the Yankees (they are what they are), but I think a LOT of his god-rep comes from him being a Yankee. If he were a Pirate or a Senator or a Cub, would he be in consideration for this slot?

also, something to notice... before Ruth, nobody was hitting Home runs... after ruth showed baseball that you need HRs to compete, thats when Homeruns came to play...

and thats when Hornsby hit all his Home runs... now, the question is if Hornsby should be punished for his lack of Home runs from 1917-1920...

 

[Clayton]

Regular Season
Playoffs

Rk	Player	Age	From	To	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	TB	GIDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1	Lou Gehrig	20-36	1923	1939	2164	9665	8001	1888	2721	534	163	493	1995	102	102	1508	790	.340	.447	.632	1.080	179	5060	2	45	107		114
2	Rogers Hornsby	19-41	1915	1937	2259	9481	8173	1579	2930	541	169	301	1584	135	81	1038	679	.358	.434	.577	1.010	175	4712	3	48	216		54

Its close. I think if you dont factor in that Hornsby played more seasons which helps his WAR/accumulation then I think Gehrig is the winner.

edit - okay. Gehrig has more PAs. Where is the WAR difference coming from?

 

[calsnowskier]

Rk	Player	Age	From	To	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GIDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1	Lou Gehrig	23-35	1926	1938	34	150	119	30	43	8	3	10	35	0	1	26	17	.361	.483	.731	1.214	87		2	1		3
2	Rogers Hornsby	30-33	1926	1929	12	53	49	6	12	2	1	0	5	1	0	3	10	.245	.288	.327	.615	16		0	1		0

Gehrig is the Bumgarner equivalent when it comes to post-season. That is a very good pro-Gehrig argument.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Its close. I think if you dont factor in that Hornsby played more seasons which helps his WAR/accumulation then I think Gehrig is the winner.

for Hornsby, starting his career before Ruth became Ruth, but yet playing most of his career at the same time as ruth, kind of killed his numbers...

again, look at baseball before 1920, and then after 1921... look at the top 10 in HRs...


Hornsby could have easily had 60 more HRs in his career... and he is the one being compared with those guys...

 

[Clayton]

for Hornsby, starting his career before Ruth became Ruth, but yet playing most of his career at the same time as ruth, kind of killed his numbers...

again, look at baseball before 1920, and then after 1921... look at the top 10 in HRs...


Hornsby could have easily had 60 more HRs in his career... and he is the one being compared with those guys...

Yeah, that would explain Hornsby's WAR stats. The league simply wasn't doing what Ruth was doing.

 

[calsnowskier]

also, something to notice... before Ruth, nobody was hitting Home runs... after ruth showed baseball that you need HRs to compete, thats when Homeruns came to play...

and thats when Hornsby hit all his Home runs... now, the question is if Hornsby should be punished for his lack of Home runs from 1917-1920...

His lack of HRs is part of the narrative. He was a league-wide stud WITHOUT the HRs, then when the HR came to the sport, he was still part of the elite pantheon. I think an argument can be made that since he excelled in both phases of the game, it should be viewed as a plus for him, not a liability.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

His lack of HRs is part of the narrative. He was a league-wide stud WITHOUT the HRs, then when the HR came to the sport, he was still part of the elite pantheon. I think an argument can be made that since he excelled in both phases of the game, it should be viewed as a plus for him, not a liability.

but it is different for someone like Cobb, who started his career 15 years before the HR came, we dont look at his numbers and punish him for no HRs... we just say it was the times... even though he played until 1928, which is 8 years of the HR boom...



But Hornsby playing the majority of his career during the HR boom, actually gets hurt because he started his career just before it started....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Gehrig is the Bumgarner equivalent when it comes to post-season. That is a very good pro-Gehrig argument.

yea... that is enough for a player like Gehrig to be considered top 5... because unlike bummy, he was great throughout his career too...

 

[calsnowskier]

Comparing Hornsby to Gehrig to Wagner, and their increasing WAR#s…

WAR3 - H = 33.5; G = 31.6; W = 31.0
WAR4 - H = 43.7; G = 41.2; W = 40.2
WAR5 - H = 53.9; G = 50.7; W = 49.2
WAR6 - H = 64.0; G = 59.3; W = 57.5
WAR7 - H = 73.9; G = 67.6; W = 65.5
WAR8 - H = 83.5; G = 75.8; W = 73.1
WAR9 - H = 92.4; G = 84.0; W = 80.4
WAR10 - H = 99.2; G = 91.5; W = 87.6
WAR11 - H = 105.9; G = 98.7; W = 94.2
WAR12 - H = 111.3; G = 105.6; W = 100.7
WAR13 - H = 116.5; G = 110.3; W = 106.5
WAR14 - H = 121.4; G = 113.5; W = 112.1
WAR15 - H = 125.8; G = 113.9; W = 117.3
WAR16 - H = 126.7; G = 114.1; W = 120.8
WAR17 - H = 127.1; G = 114.1; W = 124.3
WAR18 - H = 127.4; G = 114.1; W = 127.2
WAR19 - H = 127.5; G = 114.1; W = 129.8
WAR20 - H = 127.6; G = 114.1; W = 131.2

Wagner’s 20th highest WAR was 1.4. That is just stupid. But he doesn’t compare with Hornsby or Gehrig in the more traditional WAR#s. Wagner was the first accumulator. Gehrig just doesn’t compete at any point with Hornsby. But he had a 4.7 in his last full season, so he was still a stud putting up all star numbers right up to the end when he was forced to retire. But as I have argued from the start, I give no leeway to health. Gehrig DIDNT play after ‘38, so he gets no credit for what he “could have” done (imho).

 

[LHG]

Told ya about Musial. I think I’m going Musial, Walter, and Ohtani this round

Still seems like Ohtani anywhere in Top 25 is an assumption that he’ll continue to be good to elite for another 8 to 10 years. My perspective is that this should be based on what has been done and not what has started and is assumed to continue

 

[msgkings322]

Still seems like Ohtani anywhere in Top 25 is an assumption that he’ll continue to be good to elite for another 8 to 10 years. My perspective is that this should be based on what has been done and not what has started and is assumed to continue

And that's very fair and he likely won't make the runoff rounds for a while. Just a subjective high five to the most spectacular baseball specimen I've ever watched.

Too bad he doesn't play outfield (for very good reasons) as he'd probably be elite there too.

 

[calsnowskier]

Still seems like Ohtani anywhere in Top 25 is an assumption that he’ll continue to be good to elite for another 8 to 10 years. My perspective is that this should be based on what has been done and not what has started and is assumed to continue

For any active player (really only Ohtani, Trout, and to a lessor extant, Judge), I assume they will never play another game, and judge them on that they have in the bank. IMHO, none belong in this discussion YET.

 

[LHG]

Deciding who advances to the runoff will be tough this time, I suspect. Up to now, I tried to find a gap for a natural cutoff, but I fear a gap may not exist this time.

Shockingly, I expect some posters will be so pissed of at where the cutoff will be that they bail on the whole endeavor.

Just advance those whose percentage of votes equal or get to 100%? i.e. if Gehrig gets 48% of noms and Johnson gets 52% then just move those two forward.

 

[calsnowskier]

And that's very fair and he likely won't make the runoff rounds for a while. Just a subjective high five to the most spectacular baseball specimen I've ever watched.

Too bad he doesn't play outfield (for very good reasons) as he'd probably be elite there too.

But he doesn’t, because his pitching is effecting his ability to hit/field. Just like playing the field can effect a players ability to hit (Eric Davis is a great example of this, he basically had a career altering injury while playing in the OF)

 

[calsnowskier]

Just advance those whose percentage of votes equal or get to 100%? i.e. if Gehrig gets 48% of noms and Johnson gets 52% then just move those two forward.

When people are allowed to vote for 3, but some only vote for 1, that kind of hard rule doesn’t really work. I have to make subjective decisions in this structure.

The voting here has leveled out a bit so that there are only 2 REAL contenders, but the 3rd or 4th would have likely been included if the other didn’t exist.