Top 32 tournament 1B McGwire vs Killebrew

[calsnowskier]

I am surprised with the vote on this one. We have had a couple of high profile roids user come up before and with not much dissension towards them. McGwire's stats are slightly better than Killer's, but Killebrew is leading at an almost 3:1 ratio.

I think too many people apply personality or personal history to this vote. They dont like the way a guy conducted himself, so he does not get their vote. This guy was a stud when I was a kid, so he gets my vote. This guy could have played other positions, so he gets my vote.

This is not a vote about who you would rather have on your team. Roster manipulation should have nothing to do with the vote (IMHO). This is a vote about who was the better 1B. Why a guy who was not even a 50% 1B gets any votes is beyond me. Especially against one of the truly elite bats in the history of the game.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I think too many people apply personality or personal history to this vote. They dont like the way a guy conducted himself, so he does not get their vote. This guy was a stud when I was a kid, so he gets my vote. This guy could have played other positions, so he gets my vote.

This is not a vote about who you would rather have on your team. Roster manipulation should have nothing to do with the vote (IMHO). This is a vote about who was the better 1B. Why a guy who was not even a 50% 1B gets any votes is beyond me. Especially against one of the truly elite bats in the history of the game.

I look at the two players history and ask myself if I was running a team which player would I rather have on that team? Homer-ism is a factor, but a small factor. If I was choosing between Dwight Evans and Roy White for RF, I would choose Evans even though he was a Red Sox and White was a Yankee. (Yes I know White was a LF but I needed an example) Homer-ism is fine as long as the comparison is close.

As far as a player having multiple positions, I have always looked at it as the position he played the most at is his position. As I have aged I have learned that by doing that I was greatly discounting defensive skills. It is still the best way to place certain players IMO, but I have seen where it has taken away from these discussions.

Now I will make little one liners in these to try and draw people into the discussions. An example is my post in the Catcher one this week of "surprised no Tigers love for Freehan." I enjoy reading these discussions, and the more people I can draw into them the better they are usually.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am surprised this one got 20 voters... But there is a difference between us who actually post and the average voter... I am sure most people are not doing their research when they vote...

 

[Wamu]

I am surprised this one got 20 voters... But there is a difference between us who actually post and the average voter... I am sure most people are not doing their research when they vote...

I have voted in alotta these. If I'm not sure about a player gotta look the info up before voting. Especially w/ some of the lesser known names from decades ago.

 

[calsnowskier]

I try to ignore it for the most part, but McGwire got more benefit out of the stank than anybody save maybe Sosa and Canseco. Killebrew's close enough for me to use him as the one to take a bite out of Big Mac.

While I disagree with your opinion that "the stank" is enough to vote against McGwire here, I understand the stance, and respect that you actually posted to defend your vote. You, WAMU and Hammer are the only three who voted for Killebrew and actually posted in this thread.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

While I disagree with your opinion that "the stank" is enough to vote against McGwire here, I understand the stance, and respect that you actually posted to defend your vote. You, WAMU and Hammer are the only three who voted for Killebrew and actually posted in this thread.

I think if you're going to make the inflated numbers argument, you should at least explain why one player is the one who should win a H2H over a Steroid Era player.

And to be honest, obx has a point with his position argument and maybe in that regard this wasn't the time to do it, but Harmon's numbers compared with how I think McGwire's numbers would have wound up minus the enhancements are just too good to not vote him IMO.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Canseco benefited more from the juice than McGwire? I don't see how you can say that. Canseco had incredible physical talent, coordination and bat speed.

I think Canseco's career winds down as he approaches 30 without the help. I think McGwire's still decent enough without it into his 30s.

Just my opinion.

 

[Villain]

I see one of the McGwire brothers on a regular basis. That dude is huge. Gotta be like 6'4 or 6'5.

Just felt like sharing that.

Also, my friend's mom TP'd the McGwire's house when they were in high school.

 

[calsnowskier]

I see one of the McGwire brothers on a regular basis. That dude is huge. Gotta be like 6'4 or 6'5.

Just felt like sharing that.

Also, my friend's mom TP'd the McGwire's house when they were in high school.

Just stabbing in the dark, but I assume you are referring to Ryan. Dude was a giant when he first entered the NFL. Didnt have the talent, though.

Whats he doing these days?

 

[Mondo Jay]

I will go with the Killer in this one. I firmly believe Big Mac owes his career to Roids. (not sure if Harmon was a greenie popper, but if so, I will overlook that in this case..)

 

[Villain]

Just stabbing in the dark, but I assume you are referring to Ryan. Dude was a giant when he first entered the NFL. Didnt have the talent, though.

Whats he doing these days?

Bob, actually. He's a contractor, has his own business. I think he's the youngest of the group.

Jay, the one that wrote the book, also lives like 10 miles or so away but I've never seen him. I think he owns a gym?

Fun fact, Mark McGwire set my city's little league home run record. It was broken by Justin Germano, who is a high school friend of my sister's. Germano used to give us free tickets to his minor league games when he was in the Cal League.

 

[calsnowskier]

For everyone who discredits everything that Mac did becasue the juice...

Pitchers used as well. In fact, of all players who have been caught, over 50% have been pitchers.

 

[Villain]

For everyone who discredits everything that Mac did becasue the juice...

Pitchers used as well. In fact, of all players who have been caught, over 50% have been pitchers.

The other 50% were hitters, though.

 

[calsnowskier]

The other 50% were hitters, though.

Less than 50%.

The last time I saw a breakdown (probably a few years now), I think it was at something like 56% pitchers.

My point is that a) he was facing guys were bionic as well and b) his OPS+ should be relatively unaffected since his numbers are compared to other players who were "stanky" as well.

 

[Villain]

Less than 50%.

The last time I saw a breakdown (probably a few years now), I think it was at something like 56% pitchers.

My point is that a) he was facing guys were bionic as well and b) his OPS+ should be relatively unaffected since his numbers are compared to other players who were "stanky" as well.

I was just kidding.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Just stabbing in the dark, but I assume you are referring to Ryan. Dude was a giant when he first entered the NFL. Didnt have the talent, though.

Whats he doing these days?

I think you're describing Dan McGwire, no?

 

[calsnowskier]

I think you're describing Dan McGwire, no?

That's what I said...


Damn autocorrect...