POLL Top 10 poll: #29 player ever

[chappee11]

This feels like the Koufax argument all over again. The "but he was dominant for a few years and those were really dominant seasons, possibly the most dominant seasons ever! argument. Ohtani is good when he pitches but he only has 3 seasons in the big leagues where he has thrown more than a 100 innings. Only one of those got Cy Young consideration. Only 2 of his 3 MVP seasons were during his pitching seasons. The 3rd was for a very dominant DH season.
Yeah, he is a special player but so was Pat Venditte. Nobody is suggesting he should be ranked anywhere near the top 500. In my opinion, Ohtani's body of work doesn't put him this high.

Pat Venditte finished his career with a -.2 WAR. Is that your bar for a “special player”?

Did I just stumble onto the worst take I’ve ever seen on here in 15 years? Possibly.

 

[chappee11]

Oscar Tavares was a beast. As was Jose Fernandez. Neither of them belong in this discussion.

This is obviously a horrible take, but given the competition tonight it will barely register.

Oscar Tavares finished his career with 3 home runs. THAT’S a “beast” now?

The pretzels some folks will twist themselves into merely to discredit Ohtani is really a sight to behold.

 

[msgkings322]

Speaking of Ted Williams the dude retired after an age 41 season with a 190 OPS+ LOL (in 390 PAs), just called it quits

Oh and he wuz robbed in 1941 out of a no doubt MVP season......factor in prime years lost to war and he may be UNDERrated lol

 

[chappee11]

You guys keep isolating one variable like Pat Venditte (2 way player!) or Oscar Tavares (eye test!). But he's ALL OF IT. He's those dudes if they were front line pitchers AND at the same time a 3 time MVP with 50/50 season.

It's ridiculous sophistry. I know the game pretty well on a fan level. He's the real deal.

“But Oscar Tavares finished his career with -1.2WAR. He’s practically the same guy as Ohtani”

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yea. Ohtani has actually checked all the boxes other than longevity.

He has the unicorn aspect, the special seasons, the BPOT, and the 3 mvps.

He might already be the mosf accomplished offensive player available.

 

[msgkings322]

Yea. Ohtani has actually checked all the boxes other than longevity.

He has the unicorn aspect, the special seasons, the BPOT, and the 3 mvps.

He might already be the mosf accomplished offensive player available.

And doesn't he do some other thing that I hear is pretty important in baseball? Like really well?

Not stolen bases (oh right he's an animal there too), something really central to baseball...

It was never going to happen here but Ohtani is right now a lead pipe cinch top 50 player and arguably top 30.

 

[chappee11]

And doesn't he do some other thing that I hear is pretty important in baseball? Like really well?

Not stolen bases (oh right he's an animal there too), something really central to baseball...

It was never going to happen here but Ohtani is right now a lead pipe cinch top 50 player and arguably top 30.

Looking at the list now, I’d put him right ahead of Rickey Henderson at #14 and right behind Schmidt.

But having him behind Koufax, in particular, seems absurd. I feel like Koufax benefits from “potential” and “what might have been” just as much as we do with Ohtani. Except Koufax is 89 years old.

 

[calsnowskier]

You guys keep isolating one variable like Pat Venditte (2 way player!) or Oscar Tavares (eye test!). But he's ALL OF IT. He's those dudes if they were front line pitchers AND at the same time a 3 time MVP with 50/50 season.

It's ridiculous sophistry. I know the game pretty well on a fan level. He's the real deal.

But doesn’t have the resume YET.

You keep debating the wall saying Ohtani is an insane talent. NO ONE disagrees with that. He just hasn’t put together a top 30 resume YET. I agree with you that he will likely eventually have that. I think I may actually be more bullish on him than you are. You have mentioned numerous times that you expect him to be top 20. I actually expect him to be closer to to top 5 or 10. But you want to pay him an advance on his potential. I want him to earn his paycheck.

 

[calsnowskier]

This is obviously a horrible take, but given the competition tonight it will barely register.

Oscar Tavares finished his career with 3 home runs. THAT’S a “beast” now?

The pretzels some folks will twist themselves into merely to discredit Ohtani is really a sight to behold.

If you don’t get the point I was making, there is nothing I can do for you.

 

[msgkings322]

Looking at the list now, I’d put him right ahead of Rickey Henderson at #14 and right behind Schmidt.

But having him behind Koufax, in particular, seems absurd. I feel like Koufax benefits from “potential” and “what might have been” just as much as we do with Ohtani. Except Koufax is 89 years old.

Ok now you on more drugs than me...that's too much for now IMO (top 25 maybe)...resume matters too my whole thing isn't all or none.

 

[msgkings322]

But doesn’t have the resume YET.

You keep debating the wall saying Ohtani is an insane talent. NO ONE disagrees with that. He just hasn’t put together a top 30 resume YET. I agree with you that he will likely eventually have that. I think I may actually be more bullish on him than you are. You have mentioned numerous times that you expect him to be top 20. I actually expect him to be closer to to top 5 or 10. But you want to pay him an advance on his potential. I want him to earn his paycheck.

Just don't get this dismissal. 3 MVPs. Top of rotation pitcher. 50/50. One person.

He is a baseball cheat code and has already played the game at a top 30 level. Keeps it up and he's top 15. More MVPs than Mays and Williams. Unicorn points. Style points. Modern Babe Ruth points. I mean...

But last word is yours obviously we're not budging.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But doesn’t have the resume YET.

You keep debating the wall saying Ohtani is an insane talent. NO ONE disagrees with that. He just hasn’t put together a top 30 resume YET. I agree with you that he will likely eventually have that. I think I may actually be more bullish on him than you are. You have mentioned numerous times that you expect him to be top 20. I actually expect him to be closer to to top 5 or 10. But you want to pay him an advance on his potential. I want him to earn his paycheck.

But that’s the thing. He does have the resume. He just doesn’t have longevity.

He is already more accomplished than any available offensive player.

Trout vs ohtani

Ohtani=trout in mvps
Ohtani beats trout in single season specialness( and that is before you even call him a pitcher)
Ohtani has a BPOT trout doesnt

And both don’t have longevity(sure trout has more longevity).

50/50 is better than 30/30.

 

[redseat]

Done

 

[eaglesnut]

Do you have a suggestion on a stat that works better than OPS+ or ERA+?

Batting average and extra base hits.

 

[LHG]

Pat Venditte finished his career with a -.2 WAR. Is that your bar for a “special player”?

Did I just stumble onto the worst take I’ve ever seen on here in 15 years? Possibly.

Venditte threw with both arms. That's special. Special itself isn't an argument for a player to make the Top 50. There has to be a resume. Eye tests, as accurate as they may prove to be eventually, is not a good determination. What if Dontrelle Willis was determined to be one of the greatest pitchers of all time at the age of 24? How many would argue against the eye test? He looked dominant and he was young. He was considered special. A generational talent. How did that go?

 

[LHG]

Speaking of Ted Williams the dude retired after an age 41 season with a 190 OPS+ LOL (in 390 PAs), just called it quits

Oh and he wuz robbed in 1941 out of a no doubt MVP season......factor in prime years lost to war and he may be UNDERrated lol

Look at two of Yogi Berra's 3 MVP seasons and it seems clear that Williams got robbed twice on those votes.

 

[LHG]

Looking at the list now, I’d put him right ahead of Rickey Henderson at #14 and right behind Schmidt.

But having him behind Koufax, in particular, seems absurd. I feel like Koufax benefits from “potential” and “what might have been” just as much as we do with Ohtani. Except Koufax is 89 years old.

The "Old Hoss Radbourn" group that you feel like attacking didn't exactly vote for Koufax. The ones you are calling absurd that it was absurd that Koufax got ranked where he was. Speaking for myself, I think intangibles and what ifs for career length are crazy ways to measure the greatness of a player (or, very least, why over ranked).

And as for Ohtani not being special or not looking like a superstar, no one is arguing that. Its the fact that we want to rank a player based off a 6 year stretch against players who played out between 12 to 25 seasons seems ridiculous. Should we all be alive, let's revisit these rankings after Ohtani is out of the game and give him his proper ranking at that time. Maybe he is number 1 by then! Based on the possibility that he could just as easily fade from the game in a year, I don't see the need to rank him so high.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The "Old Hoss Radbourn" group that you feel like attacking didn't exactly vote for Koufax. The ones you are calling absurd that it was absurd that Koufax got ranked where he was. Speaking for myself, I think intangibles and what ifs for career length are crazy ways to measure the greatness of a player (or, very least, why over ranked).

And as for Ohtani not being special or not looking like a superstar, no one is arguing that. Its the fact that we want to rank a player based off a 6 year stretch against players who played out between 12 to 25 seasons seems ridiculous. Should we all be alive, let's revisit these rankings after Ohtani is out of the game and give him his proper ranking at that time. Maybe he is number 1 by then! Based on the possibility that he could just as easily fade from the game in a year, I don't see the need to rank him so high.

i just dont understand stumping Trout and saying Ohtani is nowhere near him...

two players without longevity, the main piece in an analysis between the 2 would be the magnitude of their greatness...

and there i think Ohtani kicks Trouts butt at...

 

[LHG]

i just dont understand stumping Trout and saying Ohtani is nowhere near him...

two players without longevity, the main piece in an analysis between the 2 would be the magnitude of their greatness...

and there i think Ohtani kicks Trouts butt at...

Ohtani has played 7 seasons, Trout has played 14 seasons.

Ohtani has a 43.8 career WAR, Trout has a 86 career WAR. Should Ohtani maintain his pace, he could have Trout beat in career WAR by 1.6, if Trout does not add to his WAR in future seasons.

This isn't a vote on what we think will happen, should players continue in their greatness. Its based on a body of work now. Both have 3 MVPs, but Trout has the longer body of work. Do I think Ohtani will eventually be Top 10 (or Top 5)? Sure that is a strong possibility, should he continue his level of dominance. But many players have been sidetracked from greatness for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to assume that he is going to be all that, even though he looks like he will. I'm okay with voting him in much higher, if, after his career is all done, his resume justifies it.

Having 3 MVPs in 7 seasons is really impressive but its only 7 seasons so far. Trout got 3 within 6 years of each other and finished 2nd in the votes 3 other times (along with another 2 top 5 finishes). That is extremely impressive. Playing down Trout's actual resume while playing up Ohtani's potential resume seems rather ridiculous.

Again, Ohtani could eventually become the best player in all of MLB history. But that potential doesn't mean he gets Top 30 or 50 rankings now. Let him earn it just like all other players on this list earned it (not like Koufax and his "what could have been" ranking).

 

[chappee11]

Ok now you on more drugs than me...that's too much for now IMO (top 25 maybe)...resume matters too my whole thing isn't all or none.

I thought you said you were the “OG Ohtani guy”, or whatever? Weren’t you voting for him in the 10-15 range? Now ranking him that high is a sign of too many drugs being consumed?

Rickey Henderson was the first ranking on here that really bugged me. He played forever, of course, but he only had two top-5 MVP finishes in his entire career(winning 1). That ceiling felt nowhere near a top-20 guy to me. Ohtani slots higher in my view.