POLL Top 10 poll: #28 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)
16) Randy Johnson (defeated Tris Speaker 16-11)
17) Tris Speaker (defeated Greg Maddux 18-12)
18) Greg Maddux (defeated Albert Pujols 17-9)
19) Joe DiMaggio (defeated Albert Pujols 17-13)
20) Albert Pujols (defeated Pedro Martinez 16-14)
21) Pedro Martinez (defeated Jimmie Foxx 20-10)
22) Jimmie Foxx (defeated Cy Young, Lefty Grove and Christy Mathewson 16-12-2-1)
23) Cy Young (defeated Lefty Grove 17-13)
24) Lefty Grove (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 21-9)
25) Ken Griffey Jr (defeated Alex Rodriguez 14-12)
26) Christy Mathewson (defeated Sandy Koufax and Alex Rodriguez 16-10-5)
27) Frank Robinson (defeated Sandy Koufax 16-10)

Who is the #28 player ever? This poll will close Sunday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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[calsnowskier]

With Robinson now off the board, I am back to a fluid top 3

I am thinking Kershaw and Bench (I can get behind Yogi) for my first 2. The 3rd spot is a bunch of guys, though. Ott/Trout/Clemente/Lajoie??

 

[calsnowskier]

We are getting to the point where recency bias will play a HUGE role in the vote, I think. We just weren’t around to experience the second tier legends of yesteryear, so we can’t make the strong arguments for them the way we are able for the stars of the last 40-50 years.

 

[Clayton]

ARod is a massive elephant in the room. He is up there with Pujols and Foxx except for that thing.

Trout I think is becoming a massive elephant in the room, too. His WAR7 is top shelf

Also voting Gibson. Nothing concrete there. Just legend.

I think we're also at the point where Ohtani I think is a realistic pick

 

[calsnowskier]

ARod is a massive elephant in the room. He is up there with Pujols and Foxx except for that thing.

Trout I think is becoming a massive elephant in the room, too. His WAR7 is top shelf

Also voting Gibson. Nothing concrete there. Just legend.

I think we're also at the point where Ohtani I think is a realistic pick

Yup. Though without “that thing” I would probably rate him higher than Poo Holes and Foxx.

Yup. Though I don’t think Trout is horribly under-ranked yet. I think he belongs below Ott, but they are good comps.

Yup. I grew up hearing how OP Gibson was. But there is no evidence of it outside of stories told people who wanted to talk up the story. My trust in those stories have dropped a LOT in the last 20 years or so, as I begin to question the sources and motivations of those stories. He vary well may have been a better hitter than the Babe while simultaneously wearing the tools of ignorance. But without a shred of evidence, I put him in the same category as Beowulf.

 

[calsnowskier]

I just looked at Spahn’s numbers. He needs more love in this discussion. I will do one of my breakdowns for him and post with some of the other pitchers I think should be in the discussion here…

 

[jon2tanman]

They lowered the pitching mound in 1968 to even out the past dominance of pitching. Rumor was it was because of Gibson but what is fact and what is lore, I don't know.

 

[Clayton]

They lowered the pitching mound in 1968 to even out the past dominance of pitching. Rumor was it was because of Gibson but what is fact and what is lore, I don't know.

Quite a bit has been written about it. I dont think its too mysterious. B Gibson wasn't the only reason but he was certainly the best when it was the advantage.

 

[Clayton]

Yup. Though I don’t think Trout is horribly under-ranked yet. I think he belongs below Ott, but they are good comps.

Yeah, no. Im not on board with that at all. Ott has awhile

 

[Cedrique]

Yeah, no. Im not on board with that at all. Ott has awhile

I change my mind a lot but I'm on board with Ott now because I think he is one of the last guys with 12-14 great seasons as opposed to 7-8. He's similar to Robinson in that way.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sandy Koufax (1955 - 1966)

3 CY, 1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 6 (+1) ASG

Bold: ERA 5, K 4, IP 2, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP

Warren Spahn 1946 - 1965 (pitched in 4 games in 1942 before going to war for 3 years)

1 CY,, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 9 down ballot MVP, 14 (+2) ASG (CY did not begin until his age 35 season)

Bold: ERA 3, K 4, IP 4, WHIP 4

363-245 W-L
2583/1434 K/BB
665/382 GS/CG
5243.2 IP

Clayton Kershaw 2008 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG

Bold: ERA 5, IP 1, K 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 2

212-94 W-L
2968/678 K/BB
429/25 GS/CG
2742.2 IP

Tom Seaver 1967 - 1986

3 CY, ROY, 5 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 5 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG

Bold: ERA 3, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 3

311-205 W-L
3640/1390 K/BB
647/231 GS/CG
4783.0 IP

Justin Verlander 2005 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, ROY, 6 top 5 CY, 3 top 10 MVP, 1 down ballot CY, 4 down ballot MVP, 9 ASG

Bold: ERA 2, IP 4, K 5, WHIP 5, K/BB 2

262-147 W-L
3416/952 K/BB
526/26 GS/CG
3415.2 IP

Grover Alexander 1911 - 1930

3 down ballot MVP

Bold: ERA 5, IP 7, K 6, WHIP 5, K/BB 3

373-208 W-L
2198/951 K/BB
600/436 GS/CG
5190.0 IP

 

[Cedrique]

I just looked at Spahn’s numbers. He needs more love in this discussion. I will do one of my breakdowns for him and post with some of the other pitchers I think should be in the discussion here…

Yeah Spahn is great but I still don't know how we get Mathewson and then ignore Alexander.

 

[calsnowskier]

Mel Ott 1926 - 1947 (RF)

3 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 MVP, 7 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG

110.9 53.7

Bold: WAR 3, HR 6, R 2, RBI 1, OPS 2

160 - 8
140 - 6
120 - 4

Alex Rodriguez (SS/3B) 1994 - 2016

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, 2 GG, 10 SS

117.6, 64.3

Bold: WAR 6, R 5, RBI 2, HR 5, 2B 1, H 1, OPS 2, TB 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 8

Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current

3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG

86.2, 65.1

Bold: WAR 5, R 4, RBI 1, BB 3, OBP 4, SLG 3, OPS 4, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 3
160 - 7
140 - 0
120 - 0

Yogi Berra (C) 1946 - 1965

3 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 8 additional seasons with MVP votes, 15 (+3) ASG

59.5, 38.2

Bold: NA

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 0
140 - 2
120 - 7

Johnny Bench (C) 1967 - 1983

2 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, ROY, 10 GG

75.1, 47.2

Bold: WAR 1, HR 2, RBI 3, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 1
140 - 4
120 - 5

Eddie Collins (2B) 1906 - 1930 (played in a total of 68 games in the 1906, 1907, 1928, 1929 and 1930 seasons combined)

1 MVP, 5 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP (no other awards around then, nor ASG)

124.3, 64.3

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, SB 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 5
140 - 5
120 - 7

Nap Lajoie (2B) 1896 - 1916

2 seasons with MVP votes toward end of career (MVP not given most of his career)

106.9, 60.1

Bold: WAR 6, R 1, 2B 5, HR 1, RBI 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 4
140 - 5
120 - 4

Joe Morgan (2B) 1963 - 1984 (played in total of 28 games in the 1963, 1964 and 1968 seasons combined)

2 MVPs, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 10 ASG, 5 GG, 1 SS

100.6, 59.3

Bold: WAR 4, R 1, 3B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 1
160 - 1
140 - 3
120 - 5

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah Spahn is great but I still don't know how we get Mathewson and then ignore Alexander.

Alexander has been in the discussion for a while. I don’t feel he has been ignored.

The best way to get him attention, though, is to stump him. Make an argument. Convince us.

 

[redseat]

Voted

 

[calsnowskier]

I would say Kershaw and Spahn are the top pitchers on the board (pending Ced’s pending sales pitch for Alexander).

Probably 4 or 5 position players vying for the top of the mountain.

 

[Cedrique]

Alexander has been in the discussion for a while. I don’t feel he has been ignored.

The best way to get him attention, though, is to stump him. Make an argument. Convince us.

He played in an era where pitchers were expected to try and go the distance and wins were meaningful and he won 373 games, which I believe is 3rd or 4th all time. On a side note, he also saved 32 games over the years, so he was a go to guy in key situations even when he wasn't starting.

He is 2nd all time to Walter Johnson in career shutouts with 90.

Led the league in WAR 6 times, in addition to the stats listed in the comparison above.

In the 1926 WS with the Cardinals he pitched 2 complete games, winning both and then saved game 7, pitching 2 1/3 innings of no-hit ball against the Yankees.

 

[Cedrique]

Between 1914-1917 Alexander won 121 games, leading the league in wins all 4 seasons and ERA 3 of those season, also Ks all 4, ERA+ 2 of those seasons. Those seasons also included 42 shutouts.

That would be considered his prime, which was stopped in 1918 by WWI but in 1919-20 he picked up where he left off with another 2 great seasons.

 

[Cedrique]

I guess that's all I got. I value the CG Shutout because it is the only stat that guarantees that your team wins the game. (kind of like how the Home Run is the one stat that guarantees your team scores a run)

 

[calsnowskier]

Reposted to include ERA+ buckets…

Sandy Koufax (1955 - 1966)

3 CY, 1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 6 (+1) ASG

Bold: ERA 5, K 4, IP 2, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

ERA+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 1
140 - 2
120 - 1 (0 additional 115+)

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP

Warren Spahn 1946 - 1965 (pitched in 4 games in 1942 before going to war for 3 years)

1 CY,, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 9 down ballot MVP, 14 (+2) ASG (CY did not begin until his age 35 season)

Bold: ERA 3, K 4, IP 4, WHIP 4

ERA+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 1
140 - 0
120 - 9 (5 additional 115+)

363-245 W-L
2583/1434 K/BB
665/382 GS/CG
5243.2 IP

Clayton Kershaw 2008 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG

Bold: ERA 5, IP 1, K 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 2

ERA+ buckets

220 - 1
200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 2 (1 additional 115+)

212-94 W-L
2968/678 K/BB
429/25 GS/CG
2742.2 IP

Tom Seaver 1967 - 1986

3 CY, ROY, 5 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 top 10 CY, 5 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG

Bold: ERA 3, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 3

ERA+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 2
140 - 4
120 - 6 (1 additional 115+)

311-205 W-L
3640/1390 K/BB
647/231 GS/CG
4783.0 IP

Justin Verlander 2005 - Current

3 CY, 1 MVP, ROY, 6 top 5 CY, 3 top 10 MVP, 1 down ballot CY, 4 down ballot MVP, 9 ASG

Bold: ERA 2, IP 4, K 5, WHIP 5, K/BB 2

ERA+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 0
160 - 4
140 - 1
120 - 7 (1 additional 115+)

262-147 W-L
3416/952 K/BB
526/26 GS/CG
3415.2 IP

Grover Alexander 1911 - 1930

3 down ballot MVP

Bold: ERA 5, IP 7, K 6, WHIP 5, K/BB 3

ERA+ buckets

220 - 1
200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 4
140 - 1
120 - 9 (2 additional 115+)

373-208 W-L
2198/951 K/BB
600/436 GS/CG
5190.0 IP