POLL Top 10 poll #13: #13 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #13 player in baseball history. Poll closes Thursday AM.

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[calsnowskier]

Just about impossible to compare these two directly. Any time we will have a hitter vs a pitcher, it is really just an emotional argument.

Look at accolades? Look at championships?

I would vote for Clemens here, but I don’t know how to argue one over the other.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just about impossible to compare these two directly. Any time we will have a hitter vs a pitcher, it is really just an emotional argument.

Look at accolades? Look at championships?

I would vote for Clemens here, but I don’t know how to argue one over the other.

i dont think i agree that it is impossible to compare a pitcher to a hitter... i think there is a bigger issue going around here...

actually 2...

1. Clemens and steroids
2. pitchers are harder to rank than offensive players within the elite...

i think i do agree that once we get deeper into pitchers, that it will become harder and harder to compare them with offensive guys...

 

[Clayton]

I think we should give the Red Sox player the cursed number

 

[steveringo]

Just saw this... Walter Johnson's pitching motion...

 

[calsnowskier]

Just saw this... Walter Johnson's pitching motion...

View attachment 387846

That looks like hell on the shoulder and elbow. That follow through looks disastrous.

 

[nynasty]

Just saw this... Walter Johnson's pitching motion...

View attachment 387846

Never knew he was a side-armer. Huh

First pitcher ever clocked, and he topped out at 91 mph

I think he would not be the Big Train in today's game.

 

[chappee11]

Just saw this... Walter Johnson's pitching motion...

View attachment 387846

This guy threw approximately 7 million innings and is considered the greatest of all-time. They should teach this throwing motion to aspiring pitchers everywhere.

 

[calsnowskier]

Is anyone able to offer an argument for one over the other?

 

[steveringo]

Is anyone able to offer an argument for one over the other?

Roger Clemens Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roger Clemens. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[calsnowskier]

Roger Clemens Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Roger Clemens. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

Not really an argument…

 

[DHoey]

Just saw this... Walter Johnson's pitching motion...

View attachment 387846

Cool bit on him I. The documentary “Fastball”. I believe it is on Prime.

 

[msgkings322]

This might be one @calsnowskier has to break a tie on

 

[calsnowskier]

This might be one @calsnowskier has to break a tie on

Way too early. The evening voters haven't shown up, yet.

 

[Clayton]

Is anyone able to offer an argument for one over the other?

I personally think there is a small gap between Clemens and the other top pitchers because he has the accumulation in a modern era on top of the advanced metrics. Clemens is 8th in WAR and the next modern-ish pitcher has 30 less WAR.

With Schmidt, you definitely have a gap at 3rd base. But in terms of position players, I think there are some others in his tier.

 

[LHG]

Not really an argument…

How about this? There really is a backlog of pitchers to begin to consider for this spot in the list. I think Cy Young has been criminally ignored up to this point. Other old time pitchers like Kid Nichols, Lefty Grove, Grover Alexander and Christy Matthewson all need some consideration. Meanwhile, everyone seems to want to move on to Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez.
Pitchers are really important to the game of baseball. Like so important that, without them, there would be no discussion of the all time greats. Clemens' numbers are in a class above just about anyone else not ranked. Why would there be any further delay in voting him in? If its not going to be Young, it should be Clemens.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Here is the Milkian Quick Analysis

WAR

Clemens- 7 times best WAR( only pitchers), 6 more times top 5, 2 more times top 10. total of 15 seasons of being top 10

Schmidt- 4 times best WAR(position players), 8 more times being top 5, 1 more time being top 10... total of 13 seasons of being top 10...


using a 5-3-1 formula... Clemens=35+18+2=55, Schmidt= 20+24+1= 45

but with the fact that there are 8 position players (NL had DH) vs only 5 pitchers. being a top 10 is more impressive for a positioned players... So Schmidt gets an extra bonus... but no matter the bonus I give Clemens wins slightly in this comparison...

Now OPS+ and ERA+ using the same format as above...

Clemens- 8 seasons as BEST, 6 seasons top 5, 1 more season top 10. that's 15 seasons in top 10

Schmidt- 6 seasons BEST, 4 seasons top 5. 3 more seasons at top 10. that's 13 seasons in top 10


Neither player had an all time great season... if you list all the best season in OPS+, WAR, ERA+ or basically anything, neither are in the top 20...

so both players basically have longevity of being a great player...

Schmidt had 13 seasons, Clemens had 15

Clemens was in 6 WS, won 2... and pitched well in both games he pitched in when his team won the WS
Schimdt was in 2 WS, won 1... and was the MVP of the WS when his team won...

my quick analysis I come out with the conclusion that Clemens was better and for longer and more decorated with 7 CY vs 3 MVP
but Schmidt was better in the post season...

overall Clemens wins... UNLESS you want to be petty about him doing steroids...

 

[DHoey]

How about this? There really is a backlog of pitchers to begin to consider for this spot in the list. I think Cy Young has been criminally ignored up to this point. Other old time pitchers like Kid Nichols, Lefty Grove, Grover Alexander and Christy Matthewson all need some consideration. Meanwhile, everyone seems to want to move on to Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez.
Pitchers are really important to the game of baseball. Like so important that, without them, there would be no discussion of the all time greats. Clemens' numbers are in a class above just about anyone else not ranked. Why would there be any further delay in voting him in? If its not going to be Young, it should be Clemens.

Clemens isn’t head and shoulders above any of those pitchers. In having discussions outside of here about best pitchers ever, rarely is Clemans one of the first mentioned. It literally blows my mind that he is so highly regarded here.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Clemens isn’t head and shoulders above any of those pitchers. In having discussions outside of here about best pitchers ever, rarely is Clemans one of the first mentioned. It literally blows my mind that he is so highly regarded here.

not sure who you talk to. But basically everywhere has the same opinions about him.

 

[calsnowskier]

Clemens isn’t head and shoulders above any of those pitchers. In having discussions outside of here about best pitchers ever, rarely is Clemans one of the first mentioned. It literally blows my mind that he is so highly regarded here.

I suspect the circles you talk in (I don’t mean to go personal, I apologize if this seems that way), he is probably spit on because of the asterisk. You seem to use it as one of your first arguments, so I suspect your friends fall in that class as well.

The only “hate” I ever see about Clemens is the asterisk. But he tends to get the same caveat that Bonds gets (“He is a stud, but his numbers were aided”).

Ranking pitchers is naturally more difficult than ranking position players. The metrics are pretty limited. I look at ERA (and its derivatives), WHIP, IP, accolades and W-L (only at the career scale). And because the roll of pitchers has changed so dramatically over the generations, it is hard to compare Mathewson to Maddux. Two baseball geniuses can have completely opposite opinions of who is better between the two of them, and both would have completely, defendable opinions.