POLL Top 10 poll #13: #13 player in history - Runoff 2

[MilkSpiller22]

I suspect the circles you talk in (I don’t mean to go personal, I apologize if this seems that way), he is probably spit on because of the asterisk. You seem to use it as one of your first arguments, so I suspect your friends fall in that class as well.

The only “hate” I ever see about Clemens is the asterisk. But he tends to get the same caveat that Bonds gets (“He is a stud, but his numbers were aided”).

Ranking pitchers is naturally more difficult than ranking position players. The metrics are pretty limited. I look at ERA (and its derivatives), WHIP, IP, accolades and W-L (only at the career scale). And because the roll of pitchers has changed so dramatically over the generations, it is hard to compare Mathewson to Maddux. Two baseball geniuses can have completely opposite opinions of who is better between the two of them, and both would have completely, defendable opinions.

the asterisk definitely made him a villain... and what happens to villains as well, anything close will always be given to the better PERSON...

Clemens is the most decorated pitcher of al time, and all his wins were deserved.. with that said... if you take single seasons... Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro were all better... maybe that is the problem...

when the other greats of his generation all had that SPECIAL season or 2... and Clemens never did, what does that mean??

if all at their best was better than Clemens best... how much does it matter that Clemens just had more best seasons, especially if it was extended with drugs... and proven...

 

[calsnowskier]

the asterisk definitely made him a villain... and what happens to villains as well, anything close will always be given to the better PERSON...

Clemens is the most decorated pitcher of al time, and all his wins were deserved.. with that said... if you take single seasons... Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro were all better... maybe that is the problem...

when the other greats of his generation all had that SPECIAL season or 2... and Clemens never did, what does that mean??

if all at their best was better than Clemens best... how much does it matter that Clemens just had more best seasons, especially if it was extended with drugs... and proven...

But 7 CY means he had the best season 7 times. Without a stat that I like as much as WAR, it is difficult to identify a peak and compare it to other pitchers.

 

[DHoey]

But 7 CY means he had the best season 7 times. Without a stat that I like as much as WAR, it is difficult to identify a peak and compare it to other pitchers.

No it doesn’t. It means he was given an award 7 times

 

[DHoey]

the asterisk definitely made him a villain... and what happens to villains as well, anything close will always be given to the better PERSON...

Clemens is the most decorated pitcher of al time, and all his wins were deserved.. with that said... if you take single seasons... Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro were all better... maybe that is the problem...

when the other greats of his generation all had that SPECIAL season or 2... and Clemens never did, what does that mean??

if all at their best was better than Clemens best... how much does it matter that Clemens just had more best seasons, especially if it was extended with drugs... and proven...

I dock Clemens more than I should because I think he was a shitty person. Maybe that’s wrong, but I hold baseball players to a higher standard outside the game. That’s why I voted Gehrig so high. That’s why I continue to vote for Clemente.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I dock Clemens more than I should because I think he was a shitty person. Maybe that wrong, but I hold baseball players to a higher standard outside the game. That’s why I voted Gehrig so high. That’s why I continue to vote for Clemente.

No, it’s fine to ding him for steroids. Give him the boot. But you also have to acknowledge that that’s why you are doing it.

Statistically speaking he is a top 5 pitcher(just saying top 5 because there are some things impossible to measure). And he is also the most decorated pitcher of all time. And deserved it every time he won something.

 

[DHoey]

Koufax>Clemens

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Koufax>Clemens

Based on?? Not statistically.

Koufax actually might be one of the most overrated players in baseball history.

 

[DHoey]

Based on?? Not statistically.

Koufax actually might be one of the most overrated players in baseball history.

Stats.

Has probably the most dominant decade of all time

 

[DHoey]

No, it’s fine to ding him for steroids. Give him the boot. But you also have to acknowledge that that’s why you are doing it.

Statistically speaking he is a top 5 pitcher(just saying top 5 because there are some things impossible to measure). And he is also the most decorated pitcher of all time. And deserved it every time he won something.

His last cy young? You think he deserved it more than Randy?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Stats.

Has probably the most dominant decade of all time

Decade?? He had 5 seasons back to back that were insane. With post season dominance as well. But still only 5 seasons

 

[calsnowskier]

I dock Clemens more than I should because I think he was a shitty person. Maybe that’s wrong, but I hold baseball players to a higher standard outside the game. That’s why I voted Gehrig so high. That’s why I continue to vote for Clemente.

Why do you hold them to a high standard? They are just jocks who hit a ball with a stick.

 

[DHoey]

Decade?? He had 5 seasons back to back that were insane. With post season dominance as well. But still only 5 seasons

True, not quite a decade.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

His last cy young? You think he deserved it more than Randy?

Even if Randy was better, that doesn’t make him not deserving. It just makes someone more deserving. Mistakes with these awards are common. As long as a player is deserving it is fine. I don’t remember an outcry when Clemens won.

 

[DHoey]

Why do you hold them to a high standard? They are just jocks who hit a ball with a stick

Baseball is more than that. Less now than in the past.

 

[calsnowskier]

His last cy young? You think he deserved it more than Randy?

And in ‘05, he deserved it over Carpenter by a larger margin. But that is just by looking at stats. I do t remember the particulars of year as it happened.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Never knew he was a side-armer. Huh

First pitcher ever clocked, and he topped out at 91 mph

I think he would not be the Big Train in today's game.

In today's game, he would have pitching coaches, throwing routines, bands; stretching, baseball specific workouts, nutrition, supplements, year round summer ball, video analysis, and steroids. Would probably sit 105 like all the other all natural cats nowadays

 

[Clayton]

And in ‘05, he deserved it over Carpenter by a larger margin. But that is just by looking at stats. I do t remember the particulars of year as it happened.

I think even though its only 20 years ago that Carpenter having more wins, shutouts, complete games, being an inning hog showed him to be more valuable in the old fashioned ways. Clemens was the better pitcher, though.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think even though its only 20 years ago that Carpenter having more wins, shutouts, complete games, being an inning hog showed him to be more valuable in the old fashioned ways. Clemens was the better pitcher, though.

Most stats (accolade counts count) are just guides. Getting too caught up on the EXACT number opens up the convo to nit picking.