Top 10 poll #12: #12 player in history - Runoff 2

[LHG]

its much more than just Jackie... I know you ignore BA... but it is so clear that there was a BA deflation after 1950... and BA deflation is going to create an OBP deflation, and there fore an OPS and OPS+ deflation...

and I have never claimed that the elite were any less elite in that era(not that that was what you said I claimed)...

I actually can care less about Jackie if the stats seemed more consistent...

Not a completely perfect fit but BAs started going down not too long after home runs became the rage. More players trying to put the ball into the seats is surely going to affect batting average. Bonds, being the obvious exception, look at guys who typically lead the leagues even in the past 30/40 years, how many of them were power hitters?

 

[msgkings322]

its much more than just Jackie... I know you ignore BA... but it is so clear that there was a BA deflation after 1950... and BA deflation is going to create an OBP deflation, and there fore an OPS and OPS+ deflation...

and I have never claimed that the elite were any less elite in that era(not that that was what you said I claimed)...

I actually can care less about Jackie if the stats seemed more consistent...

It would maybe deflate OPS but it would have no effect on OPS+ because that's just comparison to the rest of the league that season, adjusted for park effects and so on.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Huh?

+ stats compare a player’s performance against other players of the same year. It PERFECTLY adjusts for any global rise or fall of a single metric.

And ftr, I NEVER look at career + stats. + stats are for seasonal consumption only.

adjusted stats don't measure for standard deviation... now I am not sure whether it can or not... but we can easily tell what seasons have higher variance and lower variance by just looking at the top 10s...


the further away the 10th best player at a stat is from the league average, you can tell how strong the average is...

when I talk about BA deflation, I am specifically talking about the elite players... as I don't think the league average changes much year to year...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Not a completely perfect fit but BAs started going down not too long after home runs became the rage. More players trying to put the ball into the seats is surely going to affect batting average. Bonds, being the obvious exception, look at guys who typically lead the leagues even in the past 30/40 years, how many of them were power hitters?

yes and no... there is definitely truth to it... but if you look at 1920-1950. power hitters were still hitting for high average... there will always be exceptions to every rule... but when basically every power hitter was still hitting for average, doesn't that scream something might be different from how we now see it...

 

[calsnowskier]

But Henderson is surely clean of steroids. Never mind that he was on the team of Canseco and McGwire for years and lasted longer than just about anyone else in MLB during that time period.

While I don’t believe he juiced, if it were to come out that he did, I would not be shocked in the slightest. He wasn’t bulky, but he was RIPPED.

 

[LHG]

While I don’t believe he juiced, if it were to come out that he did, I would not be shocked in the slightest. He wasn’t bulky, but he was RIPPED.

Not very player that was alleged to have used were bulky.

Neither were all of them very good.

https://www.seattlepi.com/sports/baseball/article/ex-mariner-admits-drug-use-1260136.php

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But Henderson is surely clean of steroids. Never mind that he was on the team of Canseco and McGwire for years and lasted longer than just about anyone else in MLB during that time period.

that's an odd POV... not that Rickey may have taken Steroids... but the fact that longevity can only be reached with cheating... but yet, we rewarded longevity throughout this by players who found ways to be good during their decline... so, why do you think modern players can't find success in their longevity without cheating??

and then why are we rewarding yesteryear players for their longevity....

 

[LHG]

that's an odd POV... not that Rickey may have taken Steroids... but the fact that longevity can only be reached with cheating... but yet, we rewarded longevity throughout this by players who found ways to be good during their decline... so, why do you think modern players can't find success in their longevity without cheating??

and then why are we rewarding yesteryear players for their longevity....

I'm trying to point out the odd inconsistencies on how players from the late 80s/90s/early 00s are measured for steroid use. I don't know if he took steroids but it just seems odd to me that he would be above reproach considering who he played with and the length of his career. How many speedsters play that long? Steroids may not have played that role, maybe he was just that gifted. I just wish that there was more consistency on how players were judged from that time period.
And regarding the length of his career, its likely that, of anyone who will be discussed in the top 100 (if we get that far), only Cap Anson and Nolan Ryan exceed him in seasons played (not counting Henderson's minor league stints after his MLB days were over). And only Eddie Collins played the same amount of seasons he played. There are likely only as many as 6 players who will be talked about (or, in the case of Cobb, already voted in) who played just one fewer season that he did. And for players in the early part of the 20th century, such as Hornsby, their seasons only went as long as they did because they managed toward the end of their careers and played very part time roles on the team.
Hey, maybe Henderson did stay clean the whole time and was freakishly blessed with good recovery time well into his 40s and/or willed himself to stay healthy for the love of the game. I don't think we'll ever know for certain. I'd just like to know why he wasn't suspected for using. Was it because he was more entertaining than the dour Clemens and Bonds? Was it because some players needed to be shielded for the sake of the game?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm trying to point out the odd inconsistencies on how players from the late 80s/90s/early 00s are measured for steroid use. I don't know if he took steroids but it just seems odd to me that he would be above reproach considering who he played with and the length of his career. How many speedsters play that long? Steroids may not have played that role, maybe he was just that gifted. I just wish that there was more consistency on how players were judged from that time period.
And regarding the length of his career, its likely that, of anyone who will be discussed in the top 100 (if we get that far), only Cap Anson and Nolan Ryan exceed him in seasons played (not counting Henderson's minor league stints after his MLB days were over). And only Eddie Collins played the same amount of seasons he played. There are likely only as many as 6 players who will be talked about (or, in the case of Cobb, already voted in) who played just one fewer season that he did. And for players in the early part of the 20th century, such as Hornsby, their seasons only went as long as they did because they managed toward the end of their careers and played very part time roles on the team.
Hey, maybe Henderson did stay clean the whole time and was freakishly blessed with good recovery time well into his 40s and/or willed himself to stay healthy for the love of the game. I don't think we'll ever know for certain. I'd just like to know why he wasn't suspected for using. Was it because he was more entertaining than the dour Clemens and Bonds? Was it because some players needed to be shielded for the sake of the game?

steroids were not vilified until 2001 when Bonds was in process of breaking the HR record...

Henderson retired in 2003, but really didn't play much in 2002 or 2003... so 2001 really was Henderson's last season...where he was overshadowed by bonds...

also, steroids to extend a career was not exactly a focus by fans until well after 2003... so it is not surprising that he never was linked to it while playing... whether he did it or not...

after he retired, nobody was going to disect his career to show steroids, because he was not a big home run guy, and never had an out of character season...

 

[Cedrique]

A reporter asked Rickey Henderson if Ken Caminiti’s estimate that 50% of Major League players were taking steroids was accurate. His response was, “Well, Rickey’s not one of them, so that’s 49 percent right there.”