Thoughts on Eric Ebron.........

[themuzzer]

Nope, must have been his turn for "alone time" with Coach Petey.

Don't be jealous because you don't get alone time with Caldwell....I just happen to have it like that.

 

[lionstop1]

I would wager that at times, Ebron will force coverage (safety help) to the middle of the field, allowing Tate or Calvin to get single coverage on the outside. BUT, it wont be as effective until Ebron proves he can make plays down field.

 

[lionstop1]

Let me ask you this Trustme:

How exactly would you plan to defend the Lions?

 

[lionstop1]

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[TrustMeIamRight]

Let me ask you this Trustme:

How exactly would you plan to defend the Lions?

Exactly how teams have defended the Lions the past two years. I would drop the safeties 20+ yards off the line of scrimmage and make the Lions try and beat me with underneath routes. Calvin Johnson would be doubled basically every play and I'd try to make someone else beat me.

The Lions have yet to prove they can run the ball consistently. They will show flashes, but they face 6 and 7 man boxes with deep safeties and still have trouble running the ball. So I know Detroit will always go back to passing the ball. So I just wait for the Lions to shoot themselves in the foot with a turnover or dropped passes.

IMO -- Detroit has a great passing offense and have had a great passing offense. You take away the big plays and it forces the Lions to make multiple plays to score. I wouldn't move the safeties until the Lions proved they can run the ball consistently, as that is their biggest issue on offense (that and turnovers).

The Giants had a brutal game plan last week. Single cover Megatron and try to take away the run makes no sense against the Lions. My guess is -- they felt with DRC, they would be able to do so, as Amakumura held Calvin to 3 catches last year, when he played injured. Calvin is 100% healthy and I don't see anyone holding him down in man coverage when he is healthy. We saw how fast the Giants changed up after Calvin put up 130 yards in the first half.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

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If the Lions lined up like this -- I would get a good laugh at one of the WR's snapping the ball to Stafford.

 

[lionstop1]

How would you double Calvin though? Are you saying that you have the CB cover him with the safety over the top?

I do believe that the Giants planned on playing them like they did but I also believe that most teams will be forced to single cover CJ often.

 

[themuzzer]

How would you double Calvin though? Are you saying that you have the CB cover him with the safety over the top?

I do believe that the Giants planned on playing them like they did but I also believe that most teams will be forced to single cover CJ often.

I want to see more 3 TE (Pettigrew, Fauria, Ebron) far right with Calvin left up top on the left......Reggie in the Backfield.......Defenses will have fits with that. The scheme is there, the players are there, it's up to the coaches to do it many times per game.....I don't want to see it once a game, I want to see it 5 to 10 times a game...


The possibilites are endless....How about a screen but with those three big bodies it would be a POWER SCREEN!....I want to see it!

 

[lionstop1]

I agree Muzz. That grouping definitely presents a problem for a defense. They can run and pass out of that easily. I would think it would be hard for a defense to guess whats coming out of that package.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

How would you double Calvin though? Are you saying that you have the CB cover him with the safety over the top?

I do believe that the Giants planned on playing them like they did but I also believe that most teams WILL BEforced to single cover CJ often.

The same way CJ has been doubled his entire career, sans some red zone plays where the Saints flat out lined up 2 CB's on him at the line of scrimmage. Yes -- that means the safety over the top, attempting to take away big plays.

I guess I am missing where teams will be forced to single cover Calvin Johnson? In what situation will teams be forced to single cover Calvin? I can tell you this. If there was an answer to that question -- The Lions would be running that offensive set every play.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I bolded the two statements I will respond to.

We will have to agree to disagree regarding teams game planning for Ebron, as I would wager we won't see a single play where a defense doubles Ebron and leaves Calvin Johnson in single coverage. At least not intentionally.

You are valuing Ebron as an elite TE, when he is really just a rookie who hasn't even caught a pass in the NFL yet. Let him actually do something before talking about teams game planning to stop him.

A.) There's a big ol' difference between game planning for Ebron and Ebron impacting the defense, as Lionstop suggested.

2.) Watch the replay of Monday night's game. Calvin was singled up most of the game. I'll guarantee that Ebron was doubled at least once on a given play. So your wager appears busted after a single week.


You seem to always try to take everything you disagree with to the terminal extreme, imo. He didn't say that teams will spend all their time game planning for Ebron, nor did he say that teams will stop doubling CJ and start doubling Ebron instead. What he did say was that Ebron impacts the game, which he does by forcing the defense to respect him in coverage. If they don't, he can burn them for a big play- something we've lacked out of the position for a while.

And don't bounce this back to draft position now. I get it, we definitely didn't need a TE, especially that high. I even agree that he wasn't a good pick. Although I don't agree that he was a terrible pick. At this point it's kind of irrelevant, though, because he was the pick, good or bad. You really, really didn't like the pick, which is totally your prerogative, but I think you letting that cloud what he can bring to the team.

Targets and receptions and stats won't tell the whole story for Ebron early on. Simply having him on the field gives Megatron, Tate, Bush, Bell, Pettigrew, Fauria, and anyone else he's on the field with more room to operate because the defense can't cheat on his coverage. That's something. And no- I don't think that something was worth his draft position. But our team did, so now we have him, and having him is a lot better than not having him, even if having someone else would have potentially been even better.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Don't be jealous because you don't get alone time with Caldwell....I just happen to have it like that.

Lol, I was talking about Miller, but good for you, I s'pose.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Exactly how teams have defended the Lions the past two years. I would drop the safeties 20+ yards off the line of scrimmage and make the Lions try and beat me with underneath routes. Calvin Johnson would be doubled basically every play and I'd try to make someone else beat me.

The Lions have yet to prove they can run the ball consistently. They will show flashes, but they face 6 and 7 man boxes with deep safeties and still have trouble running the ball. So I know Detroit will always go back to passing the ball. So I just wait for the Lions to shoot themselves in the foot with a turnover or dropped passes.

IMO -- Detroit has a great passing offense and have had a great passing offense. You take away the big plays and it forces the Lions to make multiple plays to score. I wouldn't move the safeties until the Lions proved they can run the ball consistently, as that is their biggest issue on offense (that and turnovers).

The Giants had a brutal game plan last week. Single cover Megatron and try to take away the run makes no sense against the Lions. My guess is -- they felt with DRC, they would be able to do so, as Amakumura held Calvin to 3 catches last year, when he played injured. Calvin is 100% healthy and I don't see anyone holding him down in man coverage when he is healthy. We saw how fast the Giants changed up after Calvin put up 130 yards in the first half.

Well no point in debating with you if you know what's going to happen this season. I didn't realize our new offense was so predictable. I kind of assumed that getting rid of the ultra-vanilla Linehan and bringing in a new, fresh mind from a successful offense would help change the status quo in that regard. I also thought that we showed last year that we can and will run the ball against a soft box. Reggie had some big gainers, and Bell ran tough up the middle, and basically we established a much better run game last year than in seasons prior.

But since we've passed a lot in the past, with a completely different coaching staff, and since we've had trouble running the ball in the past, also under a completely different coaching staff, then obviously we're going to be a failure in both of those departments again this year under a completely new coaching staff.

I think both Lionstop and I are trying to have a legit debate with you here on what Ebron can bring to the table, but these kinds of dismissive/combative comments make that tough. There's no way you can "know" the stuff you portend above- we're working with a fresh offense that has one game under it's belt. Maybe let's just let them show us how they're going to roll this year before just automatically saying, "meh, they suck, always have"?


And for what it's worth your last sentence says that we saw how fast the Giants changed their D after CJ gashed them early, but they didn't, so not sure where you're getting that. Megatron was singled-up pretty much all game, that's why we kept taking shots at them. He was a pair of tough catches away from cracking 200 yards on the night, and easily could have had 3 TDs. They foolishly held to single coverage on him all night...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

A.) There's a big ol' difference between game planning for Ebron and Ebron impacting the defense, as Lionstop suggested.

2.) Watch the replay of Monday night's game. Calvin was singled up most of the game. I'll guarantee that Ebron was doubled at least once on a given play. So your wager appears busted after a single week.


You seem to always try to take everything you disagree with to the terminal extreme, imo. He didn't say that teams will spend all their time game planning for Ebron, nor did he say that teams will stop doubling CJ and start doubling Ebron instead. What he did say was that Ebron impacts the game, which he does by forcing the defense to respect him in coverage. If they don't, he can burn them for a big play- something we've lacked out of the position for a while.

1. Am I wrong in the fact that Lionstop said the Giants had to game plan for Ebron? What does that mean to you if someone says that?

2. I'd like to see the play, as I must of missed it. And if you watched the post game or read about the game afterward -- Amakumura stated the Giants game plan was to single cover Calvin Johnson with DRC. As I stated -- they used the same game plan last year with Amakumura single covering Calvin and it actually worked. Unfortunately for the Giants -- Megatron is 100% healthy right now, which he wasn't last year.

3. We've been talking about Ebron and his effect on a defense and he just got done saying -- teams will be forced to single cover Calvin Johnson. So what do you think he is saying with that statement? IMO -- if that were ever the case -- the Lions would run that offensive set into the ground.

4. I'm just having a discussion about the Lions. I'm giving him my opinion. He is giving me his opinion. I'm not saying you are 100% wrong or calling him names or anything like that.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Well no point in debating with you if you know what's going to happen this season. I didn't realize our new offense was so predictable. I kind of assumed that getting rid of the ultra-vanilla Linehan and bringing in a new, fresh mind from a successful offense would help change the status quo in that regard. I also thought that we showed last year that we can and will run the ball against a soft box. Reggie had some big gainers, and Bell ran tough up the middle, and basically we established a much better run game last year than in seasons prior.

But since we've passed a lot in the past, with a COMPLETELY different coaching staff, and since we've had trouble running the ball in the past, also under a completely different coaching staff, then obviously we're going to be a failure in both of those departments again this year under a completely new coaching staff.

I think both Lionstop and I are trying to have a legit debate with you here on what Ebron can bring to the table, but these kinds of dismissive/combative comments make that tough. There's no way you can "know" the stuff you portend above- we're working with a fresh offense that has one game under it's belt. Maybe let's just let them show us how they're going to roll this year before just automatically saying, "meh, they suck, always have"?


And for what it's worth your last sentence says that we saw how fast the Giants changed their D after CJ gashed them early, but they didn't, so not sure where you're getting that. Megatron was singled-up pretty much ALL game, that's why we kept taking shots at them. He was a pair of tough catches away from cracking 200 yards on the night, and easily could have had 3 TDs. They foolishly held to single coverage on him all night...

You take everything so literal. The question was -- how would I defend the Lions? I gave him my thoughts on defending the Lions. The first game didn't change my thoughts on the Lions offense. They are still going to be a pass first offense. Until Detroit proves they can consistently run the ball -- teams will follow the same blue print used by many teams, by dropping the safeties and trying to take away big plays.

 

[tpaulus_2]

The same way CJ has been doubled his entire career, sans some red zone plays where the Saints flat out lined up 2 CB's on him at the line of scrimmage. Yes -- that means the safety over the top, attempting to take away big plays.

I guess I am missing where teams will be forced to single cover Calvin Johnson? In what situation will teams be forced to single cover Calvin? I can tell you this. If there was an answer to that question -- The Lions would be running that offensive set every play.

I agree that you're indeed missing that. I also am suspect of whether you watched this weeks game? I'm not sure if you know this, but we brought in two guys, Tate and Ebron, who are both drastically better receiving weapons than anyone we had last year not named Megatron. That will tend to force teams to think twice about doubling and tripling CJ all game every game. So far were one game in with this new group, and the other team is 0 for 1 on doubling him.

It gets frustrating that you can be so dismissive when we just saw the answer to your rather snarky question of what situation a team wouldn't double-cover CJ in just last game. That seems really cocky to me to say "well the Giants just did it the whole game, yeah, but no other team ever would do it." Which is basically what your tossing out there...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

But since we've passed a lot in the past, with a COMPLETELY different coaching staff, and since we've had trouble running the ball in the past, also under a completely different coaching staff, then obviously we're going to be a failure in both of those departments again this year under a completely new coaching staff.

And a new coaching staff doesn't change the personnel the team has overnight. They are a team built to throw the ball right now. Adding Golden Tate and Eric Ebron only emphasized that. If they had a workhorse running back like Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy, etc. -- I'm sure they would be a run first team. If they had a bunch of road graders on the offensive line opening up huge holes, I'm sure they would be a run first team. What Detroit has is -- A QB with a rocket arm and the best WR in football to go along with 2 RB's who were the 1st duo in NFL history to have over 500 yards receiving, a trio of TE's and Golden Tate.

It doesn't take a Mensa member to figure out that Detroit is going to be a pass heavy team.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I agree that you're indeed missing that. I also am suspect of whether you watched this weeks game? I'm not sure if you know this, but we brought in two guys, Tate and Ebron, who are both drastically better receiving weapons than anyone we had last year not named Megatron. That will tend to force teams to think twice about doubling and tripling CJ all game every game. So far were one game in with this new group, and the other team is 0 for 1 on doubling him.

It gets frustrating that you can be so dismissive when we just saw the answer to your rather snarky question of what situation a team wouldn't double-cover CJ in just last game. That seems really cocky to me to say "well the Giants just did it the whole game, yeah, but no other team ever would do it." Which is basically what your tossing out there...

The Giants game plan was to play single coverage across the board -- it is why I said I put up the thoughts on running the ball thread. Amakumura stated this in his post game interview.

I'm saying IF a team is going to double cover anyone on the Lions -- it is going to be Calvin Johnson. The Giants played a straight man, while also using the Tampa 2 on obvious passing downs.

 

[tpaulus_2]

1. Am I wrong in the fact that Lionstop said the Giants had to game plan for Ebron? What does that mean to you if someone says that?

I saw him say Ebron impacts the opposing defense, and then you jumped with that and turned it into him saying that they have to game plan for him.

There's been a lot of posts, though, so it's certainly possible that he said they have to game plan for Ebron and I just missed it.

2. I'd like to see the play, as I must of missed it. And if you watched the post game or read about the game afterward -- Amakumura stated the Giants game plan was to single cover Calvin Johnson with DRC. As I stated -- they used the same game plan last year with Amakumura single covering Calvin and it actually worked. Unfortunately for the Giants -- Megatron is 100% healthy right now, which he wasn't last year.

Jesus you can come across as a cocky s.o.b. sometimes. I don't think you necessarily mean to here, but you sure are coming across that way. The T.V. cameras tend to follow the ball, so if CJ is getting a reception while singled up on one side, and the camera was nowhere near Ebron, how on Earth would you know he wasn't doubled all night? You make a lot of assumptions that you seem to effortlessly convert to facts, as if because you believe it to be so then it must be true.

3. We've been talking about Ebron and his effect on a defense and he just got done saying -- teams will be forced to single cover Calvin Johnson. So what do you think he is saying with that statement? IMO -- if that were ever the case -- the Lions would run that offensive set into the ground.

The Giants sure seemed like they thought they were forced to single cover CJ. We didn't need a particular offensive set to do that, just the vastly upgraded personnel we have this season. This is what I mean about you taking everyone's statement to the extreme all the time. We're one game in and we already have a great example of what Lionstop is saying, no crazy, magical offensive set necessary. Stop taking things so hypothetically far- deal with what's actually happening on the field so far.

4. I'm just having a discussion about the Lions. I'm giving him my opinion. He is giving me his opinion. I'm not saying you are 100% wrong or calling him names or anything like that.

Maybe not in your head, but your tone is highly dismissive and pretty insulting as a result. You say things we say are "silly questions" or "obviously wrong" when evidence of the contrary is easily produced. You also don't seem willing to consider another point of view, even if you don't agree. That's just my two cents, but it's also definitely how I feel you're coming across with the way you word certain things. Based on past altercations with you, though, I'm betting you probably don't realize it or mean to do it... We've been down this road before and you've said that those things weren't intentional, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt on this one...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Damnit- it's getting dark and I gotta go walk the dags. I'll be back later to keep this argument rolling, though, so getcha popcorn ready!