This is why so many people are against fighting in hockey

[BOSSMANPC]

It's a good thing there isn't a fight in the NFL every time a QB got sacked. It seems like in the NHL if you throw a good hard clean check be prepared to "defend" yourself. It's the one thing about hockey that has always confused me. Is this a tough physical contact sport or is it a sport that if you hit one of our players too hard with a clean check some one is going to kick your ass?

I know it's not exactly the topic here but it does get confusing at times. Probably because of the acceptance that fighting is OK under too many circumstances. Most of them not warranted.

 

[RobBase]

That's asinine. Yes, the kid is a jerk, but attacking someone in that fashion is never warranted. The punishment he received was wayyyyy over the top. The fight was a result of his action, but also probably the result of a very frustrated team that was down big...still doesn't make it okay that he was beaten. There's a reason 16 year olds shouldn't fight...they're too hopped up on testosterone and adernaline to know when to stop.

It's not asinine, it's emotionless, logical thinking. There's a reason 16 year olds "hopped up on testosterone and adernalin" shouldn't be starting fights by snowing the goalie of a team they are already humiliating on the scoreboard. Kid started a fight, and lost. End of story. The punishment he got has half to do with his own actions and half to do with sucking at fighting. It wasn't like 10 guys kicked his ass. He started, and lost, a one on one fight. Hopefully he learns his lesson.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

With the way the league is changing toward a skill dominated league, you see fewer and fewer goons and as a result I think you will see a tremendous drop off in the number of thugs that come up. As a result I actually don't think the transition will be too dramatic when it does occur in the coming years.

Just looking at the Devils roster, Clarkson fights but he's a middleweight and he has really toned it down the past 2 years and that's about it. I'm sure if you go through teams rosters you'd find there aren't many real "fighters" on teams. In 5 years I think it'll be even tougher to find fighters on rosters. I think the ban on fighting will happen sooner than later. I say 5-10 years as opposed to 10+ years.

 

[Comeds]

It's not asinine, it's emotionless, logical thinking. There's a reason 16 year olds "hopped up on testosterone and adernalin" shouldn't be starting fights by snowing the goalie of a team they are already humiliating on the scoreboard. Kid started a fight, and lost. End of story. The punishment he got has half to do with his own actions and half to do with sucking at fighting. It wasn't like 10 guys kicked his ass. He started, and lost, a one on one fight. Hopefully he learns his lesson.

One could argue whether he started the fight or not, but he was not fighting. He sure looked he was on his knees when he was being hit and as far as I know even the fans most behind fighting disagree with that. Maybe since he snowed the goalie to some that may mean he deserves to be punched when in a defenseless position but I am going to come out against that.

 

[Comeds]

It's a good thing there isn't a fight in the NFL every time a QB got sacked. It seems like in the NHL if you throw a good hard clean check be prepared to "defend" yourself. It's the one thing about hockey that has always confused me. Is this a tough physical contact sport or is it a sport that if you hit one of our players too hard with a clean check some one is going to kick your ass?

I know it's not exactly the topic here but it does get confusing at times. Probably because of the acceptance that fighting is OK under too many circumstances. Most of them not warranted.

I hate that too. Some of the talking heads (not Jerry Harrison) will claim fighting is a choice, you only fight is you want to. Then later the same people say if you are a big hitter you need to drop the gloves. Thats ridiculous.

 

[forty_three]

if it makes you feel better, the kid with the concussion had his suspension rescinded.

I will take a contrary view here-
the kid deserved a shot for being a complete dickhead
winning 7-2 late in the game and you pull shit like that? I'd fight you as well.
at the very least, you'd get a solid slash across the ankle and a gloved punch, and see where it goes from there.

other areas of blame
- referees for letting the game get out of hand. though the refs are probably teenagers themselves.
- his teammate (#5) for standing by and watching him get pummelled
- the kid himself for not fighting back, or even protecting himself. wtf?
- the dad for not teaching him to protect himself and/or spawning a kid too stupid to think to get his hands up

~Don Cherry hat on~
it is the ability of the players to kick the shit out of assholes that keep the assholes from taking over
example - I'm guessing that guy has not snowed a goalie since, nor will again.
he now knows that he does not get immunity for acting like a dick. that's an important lesson (in hockey and in life).

Meh...I hate staged fighting and wouldn't even mind if fighting went completely out of the game (though the fights between good players like Iggy v. Vinny or Foote V. Shanny are just awesome moments).

That being said this kid is either:

- too dumb to realize that what he did was inflammatory. He needed a lesson. Or,

- he knew what he was doing and the reaction it might incite. He needed a lesson.

Act like an asshole and you inherit all the risks that come with it. It seems to me that 16 isn't too bad an age to learn that.

Don't get me going about fights after clean hits and just general thuggery but if you go looking for trouble you shouldn't say much when you find it.

The line there is blurred. The anti-fighting crowd is so enraged over this that they will latch onto an extreme event like this as "evidence" without understanding the difference. And then lash out at those who understand fighting's place as if we think roving bands of goons should be allowed to shoot people just cuz they don't like the look of 'em. The "wild west" comments are the very definition of the Chewbacca defense.

I don't disagree but I think this was a bit extreme. I think the initial cross-check would have been sufficient followed by offsetting minors to both players.

Does snowing a goalie result in injury to a goalie? Holy crap...it's ICE not freaking ACID. You shove the kid and say "get out of here" you don't beat him to a pulp. There are very few situations in which beating a guy is warranted in LIFE...in hockey, there's no reason to beat a guy like that.

Looking at the event and only the event skews it. Were you there? Did you see the whole game? Were there any other liberties taken that the refs didn't address? Yes, beating someone senseless for snowing a goalie is, in itself, an over-reaction. But beating someone for snowing a goalie after they have spent a game facewashing, and ball-sticking, and chirping and elbowing and cheapshotting...

You keep beating on a Pit Bull's cage all day, and the final thing you do before he attacks is poke him with a stick, you didn't get attacked for the poke. Constant barrage of cheap shit that the refs refuse to address is precisely why the consequence of a beat down needs to remain. Anyone who jumps at JUST a spray is a danger, just as much as someone who chirps and cheaps the whole game. I don't know if that was the situation either, as I was not there. If this guy really just lost it over something so trivial, he has no place in the game. But this incident is not in any way indicative of the state of "fighting in hockey" and a reason it should be banned. Sometimes things boil over, and someone has to address it. If the stripes wont, someone will. It's that simple.

This very situation happened in a game my son's pond hockey team played two weeks ago. The refs were inexperienced and pretty slow with the whistles. My son would cover the puck, and since there was no whistle one kid on the other team kept whacking. We kept appealing to the ref, but it never got better. One of our D pushed him away and told him "Don't do that again". Next play, the boy stops it, covers it, and *WHACK* across the forearms. My son and the D... "cleared him out". Put him on his ass. No punches thrown, but they knocked him flat on his ass, and he got a healthy crosscheck across the chest for his trouble. We got a penalty, but message sent.

And the kid didn't do it gain. Neither did anyone else on the team. In fact they all stayed the fuck away from that D man the rest of the game.

You're right of course. The violence was obviously excessive. The offender went way too far.

However, the story should point out that if you act like an idiot you very well might get the shit kicked out of you. Call me old-fashioned or whatever but I hope that if my kid acts like an ass and rubs a victory in another kid/team's face that he GETS HIS ASS KICKED, and I mean hard. Lesson learned.

After all is said and done, it's still a poor argument for banning fighting. Fighting is banned in the league in question; how did that work out? People will be shitheads and another kind of shithead will get so mad that they will beat the shit out of them, regardless of rules and regulations.

I have already told my son that *IF* he ever does that, whatever happens to him on the ice - it will be ten times worse when he comes off. I will NOT tolerate that.

 

[dash]

It's a good thing there isn't a fight in the NFL every time a QB got sacked. It seems like in the NHL if you throw a good hard clean check be prepared to "defend" yourself. It's the one thing about hockey that has always confused me. Is this a tough physical contact sport or is it a sport that if you hit one of our players too hard with a clean check some one is going to kick your ass?

Well as you know Boss, it never used to be that way. The guy who got hit with a solid clean check would wait for a chance to lay a lick on the guy who nailed him. We also never saw buzzing of the benches after a goal was scored either (another recent development in the game that I really don't care for).

 

[BOSSMANPC]

Well as you know Boss, it never used to be that way. The guy who got hit with a solid clean check would wait for a chance to lay a lick on the guy who nailed him. We also never saw buzzing of the benches after a goal was scored either (another recent development in the game that I really don't care for).

Yes that sucks too. Reminds me of the in your face NBA attitude. Just play the game tough be physical with good clean hard checks and leave it at that. What ever happened to a good hip check? Seems like the refs call it interference in today's hockey. It is if the pucks long gone or hasn't been played but I've seen a few clean hip checks called the last few years.

 

[pixburgher66]

When a skull cracks on the ice and a dude dies two hours later it will get banned. Oh wait that already happened but who cares about the OHL. Someone will have to die (and they will) before we get this stupid circus shit out of the beautiful game.

Where've you been? I've had to hold down the "don't like fighting" fort all by my lonesome! :P

 

[Comeds]

Yes that sucks too. Reminds me of the in your face NBA attitude. Just play the game tough be physical with good clean hard checks and leave it at that. What ever happened to a good hip check? Seems like the refs call it interference in today's hockey. It is if the pucks long gone or hasn't been played but I've seen a few clean hip checks called the last few years.

They almost always result in pushing, shoving, and general fussiness nowadays.

 

[pixburgher66]

The line there is blurred. The anti-fighting crowd is so enraged over this that they will latch onto an extreme event like this as "evidence" without understanding the difference. And then lash out at those who understand fighting's place as if we think roving bands of goons should be allowed to shoot people just cuz they don't like the look of 'em. The "wild west" comments are the very definition of the Chewbacca defense.





Looking at the event and only the event skews it. Were you there? Did you see the whole game? Were there any other liberties taken that the refs didn't address? Yes, beating someone senseless for snowing a goalie is, in itself, an over-reaction. But beating someone for snowing a goalie after they have spent a game facewashing, and ball-sticking, and chirping and elbowing and cheapshotting...

You keep beating on a Pit Bull's cage all day, and the final thing you do before he attacks is poke him with a stick, you didn't get attacked for the poke. Constant barrage of cheap shit that the refs refuse to address is precisely why the consequence of a beat down needs to remain. Anyone who jumps at JUST a spray is a danger, just as much as someone who chirps and cheaps the whole game. I don't know if that was the situation either, as I was not there. If this guy really just lost it over something so trivial, he has no place in the game. But this incident is not in any way indicative of the state of "fighting in hockey" and a reason it should be banned. Sometimes things boil over, and someone has to address it. If the stripes wont, someone will. It's that simple.

This very situation happened in a game my son's pond hockey team played two weeks ago. The refs were inexperienced and pretty slow with the whistles. My son would cover the puck, and since there was no whistle one kid on the other team kept whacking. We kept appealing to the ref, but it never got better. One of our D pushed him away and told him "Don't do that again". Next play, the boy stops it, covers it, and *WHACK* across the forearms. My son and the D... "cleared him out". Put him on his ass. No punches thrown, but they knocked him flat on his ass, and he got a healthy crosscheck across the chest for his trouble. We got a penalty, but message sent.

And the kid didn't do it gain. Neither did anyone else on the team. In fact they all stayed the fuck away from that D man the rest of the game.



I have already told my son that *IF* he ever does that, whatever happens to him on the ice - it will be ten times worse when he comes off. I will NOT tolerate that.

Good points. Still think that the situation you described for your son made sense, whilest punching a guy when he's down has no place in the game. My thing is this: you shouldn't have to fight to play hockey. Because it's such a part of the sport, that's how kids react, even at the lower levels. Pushing, shoving, hitting, that's all part of the game, you accept that when you sign up. I don't think kids should have to accept fighting as a part of the game.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

For awhile I was an avid supporter of fighting in hockey, but the past year or 2 since, again, the Devils don't really have many fighers and therefore I didn['t see a ton of fights, I realized I can live without it. I'm not full on against it but if it went away I'd live with it.

 

[Dacks]

Point is he started it. You're right, most snowing the goalie results in just shoving. But, sometimes shoving leads to fighting. And fighting leads to injuries. No snowing, no shoving, no fight, no injuries. I prefer to focus on the original cause and not the resulting effect. If that was my kid I'd use the opportunity to teach him a lesson about not being a ****. Why are you only complaining about the kid who got his ass kicked? What about all the other kids who were fighting? You are mad cause this doosh got hurt. That's his fault and no one elses.

There's such a thing as proportional response, you know.

If you sucker punch somebody, and then get beat up, fine. But snowing a goalie does not warrant getting your face punched in repeatedly while lying prone on the ice.

And anyway, it's ridiculous to think it's okay for the on-ice players to decide what an appropriate response is, because it just leads to escalation and injury.

 

[forty_three]

Good points. Still think that the situation you described for your son made sense, whilest punching a guy when he's down has no place in the game. My thing is this: you shouldn't have to fight to play hockey. Because it's such a part of the sport, that's how kids react, even at the lower levels. Pushing, shoving, hitting, that's all part of the game, you accept that when you sign up. I don't think kids should have to accept fighting as a part of the game.

So let the secondary disciplinary structure handle it. The league in this case is an automatic 2 game bench for fighting. To me, that lends more credence to the "there's more to it than the shower" theory. You KNOW you're getting two games, but that kid has gone too far. You don't fight just for fighting's sake.

Supplementary discipline needs to look at the whole context of the event and react accordingly. The rule is two games. If this was a mostly unprovoked attack - add to the suspension. At the lower levels it's still possible. Maybe then the NHL will get it's shit together and be as consistent.

Fighting should only be a part of the game if you brought it on. Staged fights are bullshit. Starting with someone because they caught your boy with his head down is bullshit. Some guys managed to play their whole career without having to fight.

I think it would be awesome if the NHL would suspend guys who start fights over clean hits. After reviewing the WHOLE GAME and all circumstances. And if they find that a ref created or escalated the situation through inaction - nail him too.


And before someone Chewbacca defenses me asking if I would fight with my kid if he showed up anyone. No. I am supplementary discipline, and I can punish him in far more lasting and meaningful ways.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Busy day Pix. I'm about to speak to over 600 people across the country.

Anyway, why is it that North American hockey (not all hockey by any stretch) is the only sport where players need to "police themselves" and refs can't dole out discipline. When viewed objectively the whole fighting in hockey thing is absurd.

 

[mattola]

They almost always result in pushing, shoving, and general fussiness nowadays.

this is whats wrong with todays hockey. Fussiness..... its out of control and needs to be banned.

BAN THE FUSSY


(git yer mind outta da gutter)

 

[IndyAndy]

...I think it would be awesome if the NHL would suspend guys who start fights over clean hits. After reviewing the WHOLE GAME and all circumstances. And if they find that a ref created or escalated the situation through inaction - nail him too. ...

I would be concerned that refs would start calling way too many phantom penalties - and thereby ruining the 'flow' of the game, to say nothing of constantly upsetting the teams & fans - out of the fear that Toronto might bring the hammer down on them.

 

[elocomotive]

Looking at the event and only the event skews it. Were you there? Did you see the whole game? Were there any other liberties taken that the refs didn't address? Yes, beating someone senseless for snowing a goalie is, in itself, an over-reaction. But beating someone for snowing a goalie after they have spent a game facewashing, and ball-sticking, and chirping and elbowing and cheapshotting...

In the alternative, it's possible the goalie had given the kid a slash to the leg earlier in the game. We don't really know. Although I know all goalies are angels, 43.

All I know is that I'm glad fighting exists in hockey. We have almost no cheap shots in the game today and there used to be NONE before the instigator rule. It's clearly working!

If there is one thing 5,000 years of human civilization has taught us, it's that violence puts an end to violence.

 

[elocomotive]

This very situation happened in a game my son's pond hockey team played two weeks ago. The refs were inexperienced and pretty slow with the whistles. My son would cover the puck, and since there was no whistle one kid on the other team kept whacking. We kept appealing to the ref, but it never got better. One of our D pushed him away and told him "Don't do that again". Next play, the boy stops it, covers it, and *WHACK* across the forearms. My son and the D... "cleared him out". Put him on his ass. No punches thrown, but they knocked him flat on his ass, and he got a healthy crosscheck across the chest for his trouble. We got a penalty, but message sent.

And the kid didn't do it gain. Neither did anyone else on the team. In fact they all stayed the fuck away from that D man the rest of the game.

Where did the fight happen in this story? Seems to me the players put a hockey play on the guy by checking him to his ass and that solved the problem, rather than a fight.

 

[elocomotive]

Yes that sucks too. Reminds me of the in your face NBA attitude. Just play the game tough be physical with good clean hard checks and leave it at that. What ever happened to a good hip check?

Well as you know Boss, it never used to be that way. The guy who got hit with a solid clean check would wait for a chance to lay a lick on the guy who nailed him. We also never saw buzzing of the benches after a goal was scored either (another recent development in the game that I really don't care for).

You guys...