The NBA rookies Thread

[bksballer89]

 

[tlance]

HE shouldn't come back until he has a jump shot.

 

[Gman]

Really, really strange how Philly has handled Fultz this young season... if he was/is hurt... no way he should have been out on the floor.

And it's not like they could claim ignorance... if casual observers could tell he was all out of whack, the Philly medical staff should have been on the case.

 

[Mecca]

HE shouldn't come back until he has a jump shot.

Agree.

Bayless and McConnell are doing fine.

 

[Mecca]

Smdh......

 

[trojanfan12]

About fucking time.

 

[LogicMan]

I found a picture of Lonzo in a celtics uniform

 

[knowyourenemy]

Simmons: A/TO: 2.31
Ball: A/TO: 3

Simmons is shooting better, but those stats are made to look worse by Lonzo's 22 3s (Ben has taken and missed 3). Both are shooting poorly from the line (Ben .571, Ball .556).

Simmons may be listed as a PG, but he's taking PF shots. 6'10 PF Simmons is only out-rebounding Ball by 1.

Maybe if Ball got a red-shirt season, he would be shooting better.

So then facts backed up by stats are excuses now? Good to know.

Maybe you guys need to learn what an excuse is. Facts can be dressed up to be an excuse. Let's go over shopson's post so you guys can stop touting your "just the facts" crap.

Simmons is shooting better, but

Here comes the excuse. Trying to mitigate the fact that Simmons has a higher FG% by citing Lonzo's 3-point attempts.

those stats are made to look worse by Lonzo's 22 3s (Ben has taken and missed 3). Both are shooting poorly from the line (Ben .571, Ball .556).

Lonzo is shooting .333 on 2-point attempts. Citing his poor 3-point numbers is a fact, sure, but it's a deflection to make it seem like his higher volume of 3-point attempts are what's really making his numbers look bad. That's just false. Lonzo's numbers look bad because he can't hit a shot from anywhere on the court. Yes, his 3-point attempts lower his FG% but not in any meaningful way. That makes this excuse #1.

Simmons may be listed as a PG, but he's taking PF shots.

I don't know what it means to be taking "PF shots" but that's certainly not a fact. Excuse #2.

6'10 PF Simmons is only out-rebounding Ball by 1.

No clue why Simmons' height is listed here except for the fact that it appears to be an attempt to make it seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds than the 6'6" Ball with his 7'0" wingspan. What do Ball's height and wingspan have to do with anything? Nothing. This one isn't an excuse, it's just a pointless attack on Simmons for averaging 10 rebounds per game (9.5 now) to Lonzo's 9 (7.5 now).

Maybe if Ball got a red-shirt season, he would be shooting better.

Excuse #3.

 

[tlance]

Maybe you guys need to learn what an excuse is. Facts can be dressed up to be an excuse. Let's go over shopson's post so you guys can stop touting your "just the facts" crap.



Here comes the excuse. Trying to mitigate the fact that Simmons has a higher FG% by citing Lonzo's 3-point attempts.



Lonzo is shooting .333 on 2-point attempts. Citing his poor 3-point numbers is a fact, sure, but it's a deflection to make it seem like his higher volume of 3-point attempts are what's really making his numbers look bad. That's just false. Lonzo's numbers look bad because he can't hit a shot from anywhere on the court. Yes, his 3-point attempts lower his FG% but not in any meaningful way. That makes this excuse #1.



I don't know what it means to be taking "PF shots" but that's certainly not a fact. Excuse #2.



No clue why Simmons' height is listed here except for the fact that it appears to be an attempt to make it seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds than the 6'6" Ball with his 7'0" wingspan. What do Ball's height and wingspan have to do with anything? Nothing. This one isn't an excuse, it's just a pointless attack on Simmons for averaging 10 rebounds per game (9.5 now) to Lonzo's 9 (7.5 now).



Excuse #3.

Excellent post!

 

[flyerhawk]

Maybe you guys need to learn what an excuse is. Facts can be dressed up to be an excuse. Let's go over shopson's post so you guys can stop touting your "just the facts" crap.



Here comes the excuse. Trying to mitigate the fact that Simmons has a higher FG% by citing Lonzo's 3-point attempts.



Lonzo is shooting .333 on 2-point attempts. Citing his poor 3-point numbers is a fact, sure, but it's a deflection to make it seem like his higher volume of 3-point attempts are what's really making his numbers look bad. That's just false. Lonzo's numbers look bad because he can't hit a shot from anywhere on the court. Yes, his 3-point attempts lower his FG% but not in any meaningful way. That makes this excuse #1.



I don't know what it means to be taking "PF shots" but that's certainly not a fact. Excuse #2.



No clue why Simmons' height is listed here except for the fact that it appears to be an attempt to make it seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds than the 6'6" Ball with his 7'0" wingspan. What do Ball's height and wingspan have to do with anything? Nothing. This one isn't an excuse, it's just a pointless attack on Simmons for averaging 10 rebounds per game (9.5 now) to Lonzo's 9 (7.5 now).



Excuse #3.

Even the one sactual tat that he mentioned that supported Lonzo(A/TO) doesn't anymore. Simmons has a 2.6 A/To and Ball has a 2.2 A/TO.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Excellent post!

Even the one sactual tat that he mentioned that supported Lonzo(A/TO) doesn't anymore. Simmons has a 2.6 A/To and Ball has a 2.2 A/TO.

The easiest response for a Lakers fan right now is that it’s 6 games into their rookie season. Lonzo has done some things really well (rebounds, assists) and has looked competent on defense. There’s no real reason to worry about his scoring ability this early into his rookie year. He’s got plenty of time to figure things out.

But for some reason, they choose to try to compare him to Simmons. It’s unwise.

 

[flyerhawk]

The easiest response for a Lakers fan right now is that it’s 6 games into their rookie season. Lonzo has done some things really well (rebounds, assists) and has looked competent on defense. There’s no real reason to worry about his scoring ability this early into his rookie year. He’s got plenty of time to figure things out.

But for some reason, they choose to try to compare him to Simmons. It’s unwise.

Yeah. It is way too early to get worried about any of the rookies playing. Most of them are struggling to shoot, especially the true PGs that are shooting at the perimeter more frequently.

I think that way too much pressure is being put on these kids like Fultz and Ball to be immediate impact players because of where they were drafted. It doesn't work that. Very rookies, particularly rookie PGs, have an immediate impact.

 

[trojanfan12]

HE shouldn't come back until he has a jump shot.

Hopefully it

Lonzo is shooting .333 on 2-point attempts. Citing his poor 3-point numbers is a fact, sure, but it's a deflection to make it seem like his higher volume of 3-point attempts are what's really making his numbers look bad. That's just false. Lonzo's numbers look bad because he can't hit a shot from anywhere on the court. Yes, his 3-point attempts lower his FG% but not in any meaningful way. That makes this excuse #1.

Actually, it doesn't make it an excuse. No one has claimed Lonzo is a great shooter, just that he has taken more 3's and that has hurt his overall percentage. So...you fail.

I don't know what it means to be taking "PF shots" but that's certainly not a fact. Excuse #2.

You don't even know what the post means, that makes you dumb, not the post an excuse. For the record, PF shots mean that he is shooting closer to the basket (thus higher percentage shots) than Lonzo. So again...you fail.

No clue why Simmons' height is listed here except for the fact that it appears to be an attempt to make it seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds than the 6'6" Ball with his 7'0" wingspan.

At 6'10" Simmons is likely playing closer to the basket and based on his position, should be outrebounding any guard significantly. It doesn't "seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds" the fact is Simmons should significantly outrebound Ball and any other guard in the league. So again, you fail.

Excuse #3.

Shopson stated in his post that the "Red shirt year" was a presumption. As such, it isn't an excuse. So yet again...you fail.

 

[flyerhawk]

Actually, it doesn't make it an excuse. No one has claimed Lonzo is a great shooter, just that he has taken more 3's and that has hurt his overall percentage. So...you fail.

He's also shooting very poorly on non-3s.

You don't even know what the post means, that makes you dumb, not the post an excuse. For the record, PF shots mean that he is shooting closer to the basket (thus higher percentage shots) than Lonzo. So again...you fail.

Did Allen Iverson take "PF" shots? What about Russell Westbrook? Or Dwayne Wade? Simmons isn't playing with his back to the basket trying to post up.

At 6'10" Simmons is likely playing closer to the basket and based on his position, should be outrebounding any guard significantly. It doesn't "seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds" the fact is Simmons should significantly outrebound Ball and any other guard in the league. So again, you fail.

Really? That's your argument? So how many rebounds SHOULD Simmons be getting?

Shopson stated in his post that the "Red shirt year" was a presumption. As such, it isn't an excuse. So yet again...you fail.

What does this even mean?

 

[CitySushi]

Jordan Bell the GOAT. IDGAF what you guys think.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Actually, it doesn't make it an excuse. No one has claimed Lonzo is a great shooter, just that he has taken more 3's and that has hurt his overall percentage. So...you fail.

Yes, and that makes it an excuse because his 3-point percentage is not significantly hurting his overall percentage. He's shooting .333 on 2-point shots. His awful 3-point shooting is only bringing his percentage down 22 points (from .333 to .311). Ben Simmons' 3-point percentages are bringing his overall percentage down 18 points (from .524 to .506). Your argument is bogus.

You don't even know what the post means, that makes you dumb, not the post an excuse. For the record, PF shots mean that he is shooting closer to the basket (thus higher percentage shots) than Lonzo. So again...you fail.

There is literally no such thing as "PF shots." It's shopson making a characterization of Simmons' shooting and that makes it definitively not a fact. Of course Simmons is shooting closer to the basket because he's shooting well there (.651 at the rim). As flyerhawk pointed out, though, it's not like he's constantly posting people up with his back to the basket. He's scoring a lot of points by driving to the basket and shooting over people.

Regardless, your point is again bogus. Simmons has taken more shots between 10 feet and 3-point range than Lonzo. Are those "PF shots"? From 10-feet to 3-point range, Lonzo is slightly better than Simmons. He's shooting .357 in that range compared to Simmons' .333.

The problem is that Lonzo can't score effectively at the rim where he has his second-most attempts (24 at the rim attempts compared to 32 3-point attempts). You say that these are supposed to be higher percentage shots but Lonzo can't make them. He's got a .375 FG% at the rim. As I stated previously, he can't score from anywhere on the court right now.

At 6'10" Simmons is likely playing closer to the basket and based on his position, should be outrebounding any guard significantly. It doesn't "seem like Simmons should have way more rebounds" the fact is Simmons should significantly outrebound Ball and any other guard in the league. So again, you fail.

He's got 2 rebounds per game more than Lonzo right now. I'm not sure how much Simmons is supposed to outrebound him by but there are some guards who are really good at rebounding. Lonzo may be one of them. If Simmons is taking down 9+ rebounds per game, I really don't care how many more rebounds he gets than Lonzo.

Shopson stated in his post that the "Red shirt year" was a presumption. As such, it isn't an excuse. So yet again...you fail.

This makes no sense. His reference to a red shirt year was almost admittedly an excuse.

All in all, your percentage is worse than Lonzo's. You're not a rookie so I'm not sure what your excuse is.

 

[CitySushi]

Incoming (somewhat) objective stance on Lonzo and Simmons.

I'll start with the easiest part, rebounding. I'm not disputing how great Lonzo has been on the boards, but you have to look at how he gets them. Lonzo isn't exactly banging inside and ripping them down. He's getting all the long rebounds and weakside rebounds as he should, being 6'7". You look at how Russell Westbrook got all his rebounds last year and it's similar. His teammates are doing the dirty work of boxing out and Lonzo is able to go in to grab the boards. That's not to say what he's doing isn't valuable, but saying Simmons should out rebound Lonzo is not a good argument. Hell Curry out-rebounded Draymond in the Finals last year, but that doesn't mean Curry was more of a rebounding force than Draymond.

Scoring wise, both will always have their issues unless they're able to develop reliable jumpshots. However, the one thing that works in Simmons favor is positional versatility. Because he's able to play the PF position he can be both at the same time. That means he'll have the added bonus of being guarded many times by a slower defender and has more ways to generate offense for himself. Lonzo won't have the same opportunity being guarded by quicker opponents. He's not the most explosive athlete to begin with so an outside shot for him is more imperative, IMO.

Comparing shooting percentages to these two players is ridiculous. Lonzo's looks are more perimeter oriented(as they should be) and Simmons is more midrange and in (again as it should be). What would be a much more telling statistic is the QUALITY of their looks. You want efficiency. Lonzo is shooting 5.3 3pt attempts per game at a 28% clip. That's pretty bad any way you look at it.

Simmons is doing exactly what he needs to do. Shooting a high percentage with quality looks. Lonzo is shooting a lesser percentage from non quality looks. The reason they are non-quality is because of volume and result. If you're not a good 3 point shooter, you should not be taking that many per game. Lonzo has elite size at his position and could find many other ways to be productive in scoring the ball.

 

[Sparhawk]

Player Comparison Finder: Ben Simmons vs. Lonzo Ball | Basketball-Reference.com

 

[CitySushi]

Player Comparison Finder: Ben Simmons vs. Lonzo Ball | Basketball-Reference.com

The advance stats on these guys is a world of difference.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Incoming (somewhat) objective stance on Lonzo and Simmons.

I'll start with the easiest part, rebounding. I'm not disputing how great Lonzo has been on the boards, but you have to look at how he gets them. Lonzo isn't exactly banging inside and ripping them down. He's getting all the long rebounds and weakside rebounds as he should, being 6'7". You look at how Russell Westbrook got all his rebounds last year and it's similar. His teammates are doing the dirty work of boxing out and Lonzo is able to go in to grab the boards. That's not to say what he's doing isn't valuable, but saying Simmons should out rebound Lonzo is not a good argument. Hell Curry out-rebounded Draymond in the Finals last year, but that doesn't mean Curry was more of a rebounding force than Draymond.

Scoring wise, both will always have their issues unless they're able to develop reliable jumpshots. However, the one thing that works in Simmons favor is positional versatility. Because he's able to play the PF position he can be both at the same time. That means he'll have the added bonus of being guarded many times by a slower defender and has more ways to generate offense for himself. Lonzo won't have the same opportunity being guarded by quicker opponents. He's not the most explosive athlete to begin with so an outside shot for him is more imperative, IMO.

Comparing shooting percentages to these two players is ridiculous. Lonzo's looks are more perimeter oriented(as they should be) and Simmons is more midrange and in (again as it should be). What would be a much more telling statistic is the QUALITY of their looks. You want efficiency. Lonzo is shooting 5.3 3pt attempts per game at a 28% clip. That's pretty bad any way you look at it.

Simmons is doing exactly what he needs to do. Shooting a high percentage with quality looks. Lonzo is shooting a lesser percentage from non quality looks. The reason they are non-quality is because of volume and result. If you're not a good 3 point shooter, you should not be taking that many per game. Lonzo has elite size at his position and could find many other ways to be productive in scoring the ball.

You're right that comparing their percentages is ridiculous. I think it started from a conversation of "Simmons is more efficient than Lonzo" to looking at the percentage numbers. Regardless, the problem with Lonzo is that he is not scoring effectively any where on the court right now. I think he will get to a point where he is much more efficient and effective than he has been, but he's not there yet. I'm surprised at how bad his numbers at the rim are but I think they'll improve as he gets more experience.

It's 6 games in. Both of these guys are going to get better over time. As of right now, Simmons is having a very good start to his rookie season. Lonzo has been mostly awful scoring the basket so far. That could change. 76ers fans are defensive about Simmons and Lakers fans are defensive about Lonzo -- but there isn't much debate between the two of them right now. Simmons has been good and Lonzo has not been very good. But again, it's 6 games in.