The 'legacy' BS - LeBron and others

[Rockinkuwait]

I'm no Lebron fan, but dude is top 5 all time, imo. I have him #4 or #5 right now (depending on how recently he said or tweeted something stupid. lol). I expect that by the end of his career, he'll be in convo with Magic and Kareem for #2 all time.

Yup agree here. Everyone will have haters. Jordan couldn't get out of the first round without Pippen, only won when the East was weak(without dominant Celtics, 76ers, Bad boys), faced weak finals competition (old lakers/weak depth teams), played in watered down NBA that just expanded, league really one sided for just a few teams, Bulls did really well without him, etc. Previous guys wouldn't even put MJ in their top 5...

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Yeah, you're an idiot. Lebron has surpassed Bird in basically every imaginable way. Bird was an all-time great SF. Lebron is an all-time great player at any position. Did you know he's 18th all-time in NBA history in assists? There's a very real chance he winds up top 10 by the time he's finished. That's unreal for a player that is also easily going to be top 10 all-time in points by probably 4 games into this coming season. He's also top 25 all-time in steals, and will likely end up top 25 in blocks and rebounds by the time he's done.

He's the greatest all-around player the league has ever seen.

LeBron also played more games...While Bird spent much of his youth getting an education.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

Rest! yeah... that's the advantage.. . Knowing the heat got all that rest while Popovich was just shredding his spurs teams forcing them to play 48 minutes a game and never letting them have a night off... That's what did it. lol... Sorry that's part of today's game for everyone.

We see how Lebron has had the fewest minutes over the past 6 years of any other great basketball player ever too... The rest he gets that no one else ever had is his benefit????

And you are right the West had some better teams. And the Heat played them REALLY well in the regular and the post-season just the same.


Bird had McHale, Dennis Johnson, Parish, Archibald, Gilmore. He had guys like Cedric Maxwell who could win finals MVP on his team. Magic had Worthy, Jabbar, McAdoo, Wilkes and Riley coaching him. Pierce got Garnett and Allen at the ends of their primes. Jordan got Pippen, Grant/Rodman, Phil Jackson on the sideline. The only change today is teams outside of Boston and LA can get more than a star or two. I wouldn't call Lebron's teammates in the playoffs any better than any other 3 title guy.

But damn, you get to team up with Love and Tyronne Lue, and you are forming this goddamn never before seen powerhouse. lol

Cleveland is 4-14 without Lebron. That "superteam" is fighting for the #1 spot in the draft when he isn't out there. Miami was a game over .500... and with all the improvements since Lebron left... 2 games over .500.

Yeah, I give more credit to teams that actually try to win every night...Not teams that "rest" players, same reason I wouldn't include the Spurs in the same discussion as the great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's...And yeah, the Heat got their 27-game winning streak at a time when the east was weaker than it's ever been (there's no argument otherwise)...They feasted on the Orlando Magic and Charlotte Bobcats of the world...And the east was the vast majority of their opponents at the time.
But congratulations on completely talking to yourself with the whole Love/Lue line.

 

[trojanfan12]

Yeah, I give more credit to teams that actually try to win every night...Not teams that "rest" players, same reason I wouldn't include the Spurs in the same discussion as the great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's...

To be fair, those 80's Lakers and Celtics teams rested their players as well, especially when they started getting older. The difference is that they rested them at the end of the regular season when they had their playoff seeding locked up rather than picking games throughout the season for them to sit out.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Yeah, I give more credit to teams that actually try to win every night...Not teams that "rest" players, same reason I wouldn't include the Spurs in the same discussion as the great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's...And yeah, the Heat got their 27-game winning streak at a time when the east was weaker than it's ever been (there's no argument otherwise)...They feasted on the Orlando Magic and Charlotte Bobcats of the world...And the east was the vast majority of their opponents at the time.

You just claimed Larry Bird getting a degree in Phys Ed makes him better... Phys Ed. Yes Lebron played more minutes and games in his 13 years than Bird in his 13 years. BUT PHYS ED???

I am sorry, but when I am debating that getting the PE teacher degree is why someone is better, I would re-visit my debate points.



We can talk about rest and playoff opponent talent. About how in his first championship, Chalmers played more playoff minutes than McHale and Parish COMBINED. How there was one less playoff series back then and Wade/Bosh played more minutes per game with Lebron than Parish/McHale did with Bird. About how Bird had championship years he faced 30-52 win teams in the playoffs and won rings by beating a 40 win team where Maxwell was the finals MVP. Those don't define his career to me though.


I guess I'd rather watch and enjoy the greats rather than sit there and start with the players I don't like and look for what differences there are between them and other era players and then decide that is what makes things easier or bad in the NBA. Because that's what it looks like here. Hmmm, what's different from Lebron's teams vs. Player X? Oh they rest a few games a year. Oh they use Free agency. Oh he didn't get his PE degree. Now those all become the worst things a basketball player can do.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

My point was I'm gonna listen to what Bird has to say about the NBA before you. Not being rude or anything but here's why. Your # 146 comment about how intense the competition was during your childhood in the 90's. That kinda sums it up right there. You can't dismiss Bird's comments on an era of the NBA because you're not old enough to have seen the NBA of the 80's. It was a much more physical game compared to today's NBA.

So we are down with the statement by Larry Brown that MJ would average 50 per in today's game?

 

[Wamu]

So we are down with the statement by Larry Brown that MJ would average 50 per in today's game?

Maybe. MJ in today's NBA would be scary.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Maybe. MJ in today's NBA would be scary.

Two rules would be big, hand checking and illegal D's.

Hand checking is the obvious one. Nobody could keep up with Jordan back then with it in place. Of course the flip side is Craig Ehlo and guys with zero lateral movement also no longer play guard in the NBA. The big guards who can't play laterally are now forwards.

Illegal D was huge too. I remember watching games where teams would play Denver and just stand their center out past the three point line and post up Abdul-Rauf for 20 seconds to get the perfect shot off. Dikembe had to guard a guy that couldn't hit a shot from 10 foot out at the old NBA three point line or he'd get the illegal defense. Today the post up game is so much harder. You can half commit and push down. You can float between a couple guys if the post up guy is doubled and force the opponent to pass around your rotation since you don't have to just leave the guy off the double wide open. Everyone now goes to the hoop on a drive like they are holding a football tucked in because even when you try and spread the floor, defenses can sag in and help. Teams didn't play up on Jordan as he crossed half court because he could shoot from deep like they do Curry, they played up because you had to be on him to hand check him, and help couldn't be sagging back near the rim or they'd get an illegal D.





Another worry would be that Jordan was so far ahead of his time back then physically. I remember seeing a thing on how he'd work out before games and people thought that was insane at the time. Quickness, strength and conditioning (real conditioning, not just I can jog for 40 minutes, but I can use my 44 inch vert or I can sprint the floor after a long stretch of playing) really set him apart, but today everyone has those programs in place since high school. Training is no longer just about getting better with the ball, but those things Jordan used to do that rarely anyone else did. I think that was a huge edge for him over his peers then which isn't around anymore. And what makes that tough is that is one thing where we can compare then vs. today straight up measuring physical ability in athletics. Track and field makes up most of them but they are there. Sports which are timed, or distances measured, or weight measured. And, well from that standpoint we see just how amazingly far we've come there. And those sports always pushed for those skillsets, basketball hasn't until the past 20 or so years.



And the toughness... That's a hard one.




It's so tough to guess on that. Would he be able to follow the rules? Live with today's constant media and social media presence? Would he be able to lead as harshly as he did with today's players and FA's coming and going constantly? Would he be able to find teammates that were ok with him shooting 30 times a game today?



I think he'd be great no matter what, but he was ahead of his time which hurts today. It's really one I couldn't answer based on guessing how it would fit today.

 

[tlance]

So we are down with the statement by Larry Brown that MJ would average 50 per in today's game?

Not a chance in hell.

The pace is slower and defense is better today than it was in the mid 80s when Jordan began his career.

Jordan may be the best ever, but I hate how people make him out to be a mythical being. He was great, but he was still human and he was beatable. It is insane that someone believes he would average 20 more a game than the league's top scorers. That is just ignorant.

I am sure he could lead the league, but we are looking at 32 or 33 PPG tops for prime Jordan. Way too much is made of hand checking rules. Illegal defense vs. defensive 3 seconds is far more impactful favoring the interior defenders in today's game.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

You just claimed Larry Bird getting a degree in Phys Ed makes him better... Phys Ed. Yes Lebron played more minutes and games in his 13 years than Bird in his 13 years. BUT PHYS ED???

I am sorry, but when I am debating that getting the PE teacher degree is why someone is better, I would re-visit my debate points.



We can talk about rest and playoff opponent talent. About how in his first championship, Chalmers played more playoff minutes than McHale and Parish COMBINED. How there was one less playoff series back then and Wade/Bosh played more minutes per game with Lebron than Parish/McHale did with Bird. About how Bird had championship years he faced 30-52 win teams in the playoffs and won rings by beating a 40 win team where Maxwell was the finals MVP. Those don't define his career to me though.


I guess I'd rather watch and enjoy the greats rather than sit there and start with the players I don't like and look for what differences there are between them and other era players and then decide that is what makes things easier or bad in the NBA. Because that's what it looks like here. Hmmm, what's different from Lebron's teams vs. Player X? Oh they rest a few games a year. Oh they use Free agency. Oh he didn't get his PE degree. Now those all become the worst things a basketball player can do.

No moron, my point is that we shouldn't punish Bird for not playing in the NBA as a teenager and actually going to college instead. His field of study is more irrelevant than the 12th man on the Sixers.

We get it, you should be wearing an "I love LeBron" logo in your avatar. However, I prefer to look at all factors when determining a player's all-time ranking instead of just jumping to the flavor of the week...And anyone who has read my posts on here all spring and summer long know that I was in fact rooting for the Cavs to win the title once the Pacers got eliminated. So the "LeBron hater" card has long been old news...