The 'legacy' BS - LeBron and others

[tlance]

Not for Danny Ferry. He was there for nearly all of Lebron's first 7 seasons and he never looked like he knew what he was doing.

Another important point that has to be made in the ring argument:

Bird and Magic were each drafted on to championship caliber teams. Since then, the league put rules in place to ensure that elite teams could not draft the elite prospects. High ring counts are much more difficult now that elite players are on building teams for at least their first 4-5 seasons.

Magic was able to win 2 rings in his first 3 seasons and was mentored by Kareem from the start. That was a huge part of his development.

 

[tlance]

That's implying that James had no imput on the decisions that were made.
We all know that wasn't the case.

Nobody is saying James is good with personnel decisions. That should not count against him as a player.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Nobody is saying James is good with personnel decisions. That should not count against him as a player.

Never implied it did.
Point was you can't lay all the blame on Ferry, because we all know James approved of whatever moves were made.

 

[tlance]

Never implied it did.
Point was you can't lay all the blame on Ferry, because we all know James approved of whatever moves were made.

Not going to argue with you there. I think there are many that need to be blamed for that though.

Still, if you ran an NBA franchise today, and LeBron told you he would sign for 2 years, but only if he were allowed to make 100% of the personnel decisions during that time, would you do it?

I say a 2 year championship window would be worth it for just about everyone outside of the elite franchises (GS, OKC, maybe SA)

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Not going to argue with you there. I think there are many that need to be blamed for that though.

Still, if you ran an NBA franchise today, and LeBron told you he would sign for 2 years, but only if he were allowed to make 100% of the personnel decisions during that time, would you do it?

I say a 2 year championship window would be worth it for just about everyone outside of the elite franchises (GS, OKC, maybe SA)

Go back and read posts 53 & 56.
That is where the conversation is from.

 

[tlance]

Go back and read posts 53 & 56.
That is where the conversation is from.

Hard to say either of you are wrong there.

 

[Across The Field]

Never implied it did.
Point was you can't lay all the blame on Ferry, because we all know James approved of whatever moves were made.

It goes on Ferry. Lebron wanted the trade for Amare to go through and Ferry denied it.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Precisely why it is so stupid to use championships and finals' record as the primary means to determine the best players of all time.

So much of the circumstance of whether or not a team wins is outside of the individual players' control. A degree of common sense is needed in these arguments, but far too many look blindly at team statistics that are important, but still just a piece of the equation.

If Michael Jordan had been surrounded by current 6er like talent for his entire career, would that really have made him less of a player?

Key word there is primary, which makes me agree with you. It shouldn't be the primary means and when you look at the NBA top 50 all time list guys w/o rings are well represented. But it does and will continue to carry weight in basketball especially because fair or unfair, stars impact the game a lot more than other sports.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

It goes on Ferry. Lebron wanted the trade for Amare to go through and Ferry denied it.

Sure about that?
Seems like management wanted him?




Sources: Hickson, Ilgauskas to Suns

The Cleveland Cavaliers and Phoenix Suns are closing in on a deal that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.

The Cavaliers would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and J.J. Hickson to Phoenix in exchange for Stoudemire, one of the league's most dominant big man.

While Cleveland remains in talks with several other teams, the club, from management down to the players, has settled on Stoudemire as its first choice.

The ball is in Phoenix's court. The Suns are mulling whether the financial relief provided by Ilgauskas's $12 million contract and the young and talented Hickson are enough for them to part with Stoudemire.

Cleveland believes the addition of Stoudemire would all but seal LeBron James' re-signing with the team when he becomes a free agent this summer. The Cavaliers are also prepared to sign Stoudemire, who has one year and $17 million remaining on his contract, to a long-term contract extension once the season ends.

The Suns will likely waive Ilgauskas, which would allow him to be re-signed by Cleveland after 30 days.

Cleveland is also talking with Washington about acquiring Antawn Jamison, as well as Indiana about Troy Murphy. Meanwhile, Golden State is trying to entice the Cavs into taking Corey Maggette for Ilgauskas.

 

[Across The Field]

Sure about that?
Seems like management wanted him?




Sources: Hickson, Ilgauskas to Suns

The Cleveland Cavaliers and Phoenix Suns are closing in on a deal that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.

The Cavaliers would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and J.J. Hickson to Phoenix in exchange for Stoudemire, one of the league's most dominant big man.

While Cleveland remains in talks with several other teams, the club, from management down to the players, has settled on Stoudemire as its first choice.

The ball is in Phoenix's court. The Suns are mulling whether the financial relief provided by Ilgauskas's $12 million contract and the young and talented Hickson are enough for them to part with Stoudemire.

Cleveland believes the addition of Stoudemire would all but seal LeBron James' re-signing with the team when he becomes a free agent this summer. The Cavaliers are also prepared to sign Stoudemire, who has one year and $17 million remaining on his contract, to a long-term contract extension once the season ends.

The Suns will likely waive Ilgauskas, which would allow him to be re-signed by Cleveland after 30 days.

Cleveland is also talking with Washington about acquiring Antawn Jamison, as well as Indiana about Troy Murphy. Meanwhile, Golden State is trying to entice the Cavs into taking Corey Maggette for Ilgauskas.

Yup, I'm sure.

Cleveland's Big Mistake: Not Getting Amare Stoudemire To Help LeBron James

But that was before the 2010 trade deadline, where Ferry made his fatal error. That error? Trading for Antawn Jamison (and by extension, keeping Hickson) instead of willingly giving up Hickson for Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Not sure how you can say that. MJ's Bulls never went to 7 games in the finals. So, even if they lost those games, they would still have had another game to win the title.

I see Lebron sitting right at about #4-#5 right now. If he wins a couple more titles, then he gets into Magic/Kareem territory and is in the argument for that #2 spot all time.

Definitely top 5, but imo he's top 3 behind MJ and Magic...Capt imo is the best C the game has seen, not the most dominant, but all things considered, the best...but Lebron could do so much more I have to remove my bias on that one.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Sure about that?
Seems like management wanted him?




Sources: Hickson, Ilgauskas to Suns

The Cleveland Cavaliers and Phoenix Suns are closing in on a deal that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.

The Cavaliers would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and J.J. Hickson to Phoenix in exchange for Stoudemire, one of the league's most dominant big man.

While Cleveland remains in talks with several other teams, the club, from management down to the players, has settled on Stoudemire as its first choice.

The ball is in Phoenix's court. The Suns are mulling whether the financial relief provided by Ilgauskas's $12 million contract and the young and talented Hickson are enough for them to part with Stoudemire.

Cleveland believes the addition of Stoudemire would all but seal LeBron James' re-signing with the team when he becomes a free agent this summer. The Cavaliers are also prepared to sign Stoudemire, who has one year and $17 million remaining on his contract, to a long-term contract extension once the season ends.

The Suns will likely waive Ilgauskas, which would allow him to be re-signed by Cleveland after 30 days.

Cleveland is also talking with Washington about acquiring Antawn Jamison, as well as Indiana about Troy Murphy. Meanwhile, Golden State is trying to entice the Cavs into taking Corey Maggette for Ilgauskas.

that deal never happened because the Suns never agreed to it. Kerr was the GM at the time and has said that there was never even an offer from the Suns.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

that deal never happened because the Suns never agreed to it. Kerr was the GM at the time and has said that there was never even an offer from the Suns.

So then Ferry and or James didn't nix it as ACF is claiming?
I just can't even image that if James wanted Amare and the Suns agreed, that Ferry would nix it knowing James was heading into FA.

 

[WiggyRuss]

So then Ferry and or James didn't nix it as ACF is claiming?
I just can't even image that if James wanted Amare and the Suns agreed, that Ferry would nix it knowing James was heading into FA.

as i understood it Kerr and the Suns never seriously entertained trading him and never made an offer to the Cavs. The Cavs inquired and SUPPOSEDLY were offering Szerbiack and Hickson- thought people debate if Hickson was offered. From Kerr's own mouth Hickson was never discussed since the Suns never made an offer. They thought about making him avaliable but decided against it. I think shortly after he had some bad eye issues.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

as i understood it Kerr and the Suns never seriously entertained trading him and never made an offer to the Cavs. The Cavs inquired and SUPPOSEDLY were offering Szerbiack and Hickson- thought people debate if Hickson was offered. From Kerr's own mouth Hickson was never discussed since the Suns never made an offer. They thought about making him avaliable but decided against it. I think shortly after he had some bad eye issues.

You can have him next year for a bag of peanuts and a diet coke.

 

[WiggyRuss]

You can have him next year for a bag of peanuts and a diet coke.

The Suns had thought about moving and making him avaliable because they were on the edge of competing that year. I think the next year the Suns really over acheived and got to the Conference Finals- so at that time they were glad they didnt deal Amare---- but i think they knew they were not gonna resign him since that medical staff knew him better than anyone.

 

[trojanfan12]

But a tie is broken somehow. Kareem and MJ have the same amount of titles, I don't put MJ higher bc he is 6-0 instead of 6-4 I look at everything else then.

That may be what YOU do. But what YOU do and what I do, doesn't matter. What matters is what the all time greats themselves do. They all say MJ is GOAT and that 6-0 in the finals is why.

I do find it hilarious though that someone wants to tell all time greats how they are supposed to rank themselves.

 

[tlance]

That may be what YOU do. But what YOU do and what I do, doesn't matter. What matters is what the all time greats themselves do. They all say MJ is GOAT and that 6-0 in the finals is why.

I do find it hilarious though that someone wants to tell all time greats how they are supposed to rank themselves.

Why are we even here then? Clearly our opinions don't matter. No sense in discussing anything basketball. Just leave it to the all time greats and we should all just take what they say and leave it at that.

 

[gordontrue]

I for one would like to see some sources for all of these all-time greats saying that the reason MJ is goat is because he is 6-0.

MJ didn't go 6 for 6.

He went 6 for 15.

 

[trojanfan12]

I for one would like to see some sources for all of these all-time greats saying that the reason MJ is goat is because he is 6-0.

MJ didn't go 6 for 6.

He went 6 for 15.

He went 6 for 6 in finals appearances. Kareem went 6 for 10, Magic went 5 for 9, Kobe went 5 for 7, Lebron has gone 3 for 7.

Really not that difficult.