The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Mr. Friscus]

Who is the last player to be the mvp, finals mvp, first team all D, first team offense, lead the league in scoring, all star mvp in the same season?

I was talking about careers, not single seasons. If you want to talk about who had the greatest single season, that’s another discussion. I know Wilt dropped 50 points per game and like 20+ rebounds.. I’d start there.

To each their own but MJ was given goat status by majority of people out there. He didn’t have to insert himself like LeBron does

None of that is provable or really matters IMO

 

[Mr. Friscus]

In short, MJ's stranglehold on GOAT status is more tenuous than it's ever been and you can't seem to move past the anger phase of your grief process.

If he ever had a genuine one. The propaganda campaign by Nike, the NBA, and ESPN in the early 90’s was insane. That’s why you get such emotional angry responses when you try to discuss it. Many MJ supporters a have an evangelical religious fundamentalism in their viewpoint

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Oh you are angry I’m sure cause I was pretty spot on with my take so maybe your reading and comprehension is bad, it’s ok

LMAO

Jordan23: “Lebron is lame because he elevates himself”

Also Jordan23: “I was pretty spot on with my take”

 

[tlance]

Those 2 comments are diametrically opposed though

Of you look at everything there no argument for MJ without including subjectivity. But of you do that you can argue for anyone really c

You can absolutely make a fact based argument for MJ to be top 10 . That's reasonable. But not number 1. To do that you need to include eye test stuff which is inherently biased

If anyone cares to do a solely fact based argument vs the other all time greats im happy to listen to it

Ok, here goes.

This is fact BASED, but of course there is always going to be some level of subjectivity comparing players from different eras.

To me, a GOAT level player has to have all 4 of these things:

-Statistical dominance
-Top level Individual accolades
-Multiple championships with corresponding Finals MVPs
-Longevity

And to me there are only 3 players who meet all of these criteria at levels clearly above everyone else:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem

MVPs Awards

Jordan has the 2nd most MVP awards of all time tied with 5. Only Kareem had 1 more. Of course there is some subjectivity in these awards, as you can very easily make a case that all of LeBron, MJ and Kareem could have, or perhaps should have had more as each man was hands down the best player from their era.

MJ winning 5 in 15 seasons is incredibly impressive, especially considering he “retired” twice while performing at MVP level having won 2 of the prior 3 both times.

Easy to say Kareem has more, but Jordan very easily could have won 7 or 8.

Finals MVPs

This is the big one favoring Jordan. He and Kareem both have 6 rings. But Jordan has 6 Finals MVPs to Kareem’s 2.

Jordan was ALWAYS the best player on his title teams. Kareem was most definitely not the best player on at least 2-3 of his championship teams.

-Kareem and MJ have the same number of all NBA 1st team selections (10)

Kareem has more all defense selections (11-9), but all of Jordan’s were 1st team while Kareem only had 6 first team nods.

Jordan did win DPOY once. Kareem probably would have won at least a couple had the award been around before 1983, but we don’t know for sure so we can’t really use that to either player’s favor. Both were elite defenders at their positions in their prime.

Stats:

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, Kareem won 2 scoring titles

Kareem led the league in rebounding once, and blocks 4 times

Jordan led the league in steals 3 times

Both men were extremely impressive statistically, but MJ’s statistical dominance is on a slightly higher plane.

Want to give Kareem credit for more longevity? He deserves it. And that is his primary advantage over MJ. But peak brilliance, MJ simply has more going for him. Especially if you correctly discount some of Kareem’s Laker championships when Magic was the best player.

I’m not going to dissect MJ vs LeBron in this post because MJ has more of the things that matter most:

Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs

So pretty easy case to make there.

 

[rmilia1]

Ok, here goes.

This is fact BASED, but of course there is always going to be some level of subjectivity comparing players from different eras.

To me, a GOAT level player has to have all 4 of these things:

-Statistical dominance
-Top level Individual accolades
-Multiple championships with corresponding Finals MVPs
-Longevity

And to me there are only 3 players who meet all of these criteria at levels clearly above everyone else:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem

MVPs Awards

Jordan has the 2nd most MVP awards of all time tied with 5. Only Kareem had 1 more. Of course there is some subjectivity in these awards, as you can very easily make a case that all of LeBron, MJ and Kareem could have, or perhaps should have had more as each man was hands down the best player from their era.

MJ winning 5 in 15 seasons is incredibly impressive, especially considering he “retired” twice while performing at MVP level having won 2 of the prior 3 both times.

Easy to say Kareem has more, but Jordan very easily could have won 7 or 8.

Finals MVPs

This is the big one favoring Jordan. He and Kareem both have 6 rings. But Jordan has 6 Finals MVPs to Kareem’s 2.

Jordan was ALWAYS the best player on his title teams. Kareem was most definitely not the best player on at least 2-3 of his championship teams.

-Kareem and MJ have the same number of all NBA 1st team selections (10)

Kareem has more all defense selections (11-9), but all of Jordan’s were 1st team while Kareem only had 6 first team nods.

Jordan did win DPOY once. Kareem probably would have won at least a couple had the award been around before 1983, but we don’t know for sure so we can’t really use that to either player’s favor. Both were elite defenders at their positions in their prime.

Stats:

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, Kareem won 2 scoring titles

Kareem led the league in rebounding once, and blocks 4 times

Jordan led the league in steals 3 times

Both men were extremely impressive statistically, but MJ’s statistical dominance is on a slightly higher plane.

Want to give Kareem credit for more longevity? He deserves it. And that is his primary advantage over MJ. But peak brilliance, MJ simply has more going for him. Especially if you correctly discount some of Kareem’s Laker championships when Magic was the best player.

I’m not going to dissect MJ vs LeBron in this post because MJ has more of the things that matter most:

Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs

So pretty easy case to make there.

Good post

Not sure i agree on the dominance party going to MJ a KAJs peak was at least just a good ( 34/14/6 over 6 seasons ) but still well articulated

 

[tlance]

Good post

Not sure i agree on the dominance party going to MJ a KAJs peak was at least just a good ( 34/14/6 over 6 seasons ) but still well articulated

Yeah, I don’t believe that MJ is the undisputed GOAT.

Just that it is pretty easy to use facts to make a strong case for all 3.

 

[Jordan23]

I was talking about careers, not single seasons. If you want to talk about who had the greatest single season, that’s another discussion. I know Wilt dropped 50 points per game and like 20+ rebounds.. I’d start there.

None of that is provable or really matters IMO

Jordan did that 4 times in his career and nobody else had a single time.

 

[Jordan23]

LMAO

Jordan23: “Lebron is lame because he elevates himself”

Also Jordan23: “I was pretty spot on with my take”

Only I said nothing close to that

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Jordan did that 4 times in his career and nobody else had a single time.

Well it’s a pretty short span regardless. 4 years doesn’t make a GOAT career. Bo Jackson was probably the most dominant RB in NFL History for a few years, but not long enough to be up there with Barry Sanders as far as career.

Plus, Jordan won all-star MVP 4 times? I dont think so (not that such a distinction matters)

 

[Jordan23]

Well it’s a pretty short span regardless. 4 years doesn’t make a GOAT career. Bo Jackson was probably the most dominant RB in NFL History for a few years, but not long enough to be up there with Barry Sanders as far as career.

Plus, Jordan won all-star MVP 4 times? I dont think so (not that such a distinction matters)

Short career and 4 times. It’s more impressive to do that in a short span let alone the only one to ever do it. Come on, man. Also my bad, not all star mvp, winning a championship. Idk why I put all star mvp.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Ok, here goes.

This is fact BASED, but of course there is always going to be some level of subjectivity comparing players from different eras.

I appreciate the detailed post, and am in.

To me, a GOAT level player has to have all 4 of these things:

-Statistical dominance
-Top level Individual accolades
-Multiple championships with corresponding Finals MVPs
-Longevity

I think there's more than that... such as how much a player meant to their team's success.

And to me there are only 3 players who meet all of these criteria at levels clearly above everyone else:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem

I could make a convincing case for Bill Russell, Wilt, and possibly even Magic Johnson.

MVPs Awards

Jordan has the 2nd most MVP awards of all time tied with 5. Only Kareem had 1 more. Of course there is some subjectivity in these awards, as you can very easily make a case that all of LeBron, MJ and Kareem could have, or perhaps should have had more as each man was hands down the best player from their era.

MJ winning 5 in 15 seasons is incredibly impressive, especially considering he “retired” twice while performing at MVP level having won 2 of the prior 3 both times.

Easy to say Kareem has more, but Jordan very easily could have won 7 or 8.

Finals MVPs

This is the big one favoring Jordan. He and Kareem both have 6 rings. But Jordan has 6 Finals MVPs to Kareem’s 2.

Jordan was ALWAYS the best player on his title teams. Kareem was most definitely not the best player on at least 2-3 of his championship teams.

-Kareem and MJ have the same number of all NBA 1st team selections (10)

Kareem has more all defense selections (11-9), but all of Jordan’s were 1st team while Kareem only had 6 first team nods.

Jordan did win DPOY once. Kareem probably would have won at least a couple had the award been around before 1983, but we don’t know for sure so we can’t really use that to either player’s favor. Both were elite defenders at their positions in their prime.

Stats:

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, Kareem won 2 scoring titles

Kareem led the league in rebounding once, and blocks 4 times

Jordan led the league in steals 3 times

Both men were extremely impressive statistically, but MJ’s statistical dominance is on a slightly higher plane.

Want to give Kareem credit for more longevity? He deserves it. And that is his primary advantage over MJ. But peak brilliance, MJ simply has more going for him. Especially if you correctly discount some of Kareem’s Laker championships when Magic was the best player.

I’m not going to dissect MJ vs LeBron in this post because MJ has more of the things that matter most:

I mostly agree with your MJ vs. Kareem critique, although I think I put different weight on things than you do, and don't make as crisp of requirements as you do. For example, you talk about being the "best player on a championship team", yet Kareem has 6 MVP's. Being the best player in the league and not winning the championship that year doesn't negate the MVP. but Kareem wouldn't be my forte necessarily.

My OP talked only about holes in Jordan's claim, I didn't compare him to other players. If you want to have an MJ vs. Lebron debate, I'll gladly take Lebron, and I'll reference the initial points I made. I'll likewise try to make my points fact-based and concise, but as you mentioned, there HAS to be some leeway for subjectivity here and there.

Early on...

1. Lebron accounted for slightly more games won his rookie year compared to the previous year than Jordan did for the Bulls:
- 83-84 Bulls (No Jordan) were 27-55. Jordan brought them up to 38-44 (+11 games)
- 02-03 Cavs (No Lebron) were 17-65, Lebron brought them up to 35-47 (+18 games)

2. Jordan didn't lead his team to a winning record until his 4th year. Meanwhile, a straight-out-of-high school Lebron had the Cavs at 42-40 in his second year. And neither player had all-stars around them.

3. While Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in his first 3 seasons, they made it with records of 38-44, 30-52 (Let me say that again, a 30-52 playoff team), and 40-42. They were dominated out of the playoffs by Milwaukee 3-1 and two sweeps by Boston. Jordan scored high points but averaged very high shots, low FG %, and had unconvincing and even horrible games with the season on the line:
- 85-86 Down 0-2 to Boston: 19 points, 10 boards, 9 assists. Bulls blown out by 18.
- 86-87 Down 0-2 to Boston: Shoots 9-30, Scores 30points. Averaged 28 shots per game for the series to average 35ppg, horribly inefficient with a dismal 41% shooting.

Meanwhile, as mentioned earlier, Lebron's 2nd year the Cavs were 42-40 but missed the playoffs (while Jordan's 2nd year bulls were 30-52 and made the playoffs). Lebron made the playoffs his 3rd year with a 50-32 record (Jordans 3rd year 40-42).
- Lebron's 1st Playoff run, closes out Washington in the first round at the buzzer with 35-7-7 shooting 15-25 (60 percent), losing in the 2nd round to Detroit in 7 games.
- Lebron's 2nd Playoff run takes a team of average players to another 50-32 record and all the way to the NBA Finals in his 4th year. (Jordan was busying getting knocked out in the 2nd round 4-1 by Detroit) Early Lebron was miles ahead of early Michael, and that matters.

4. Jordan didn't win until teams like the Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons aged out, and not until he got Scottie Pippen and the GOAT coach Phil Jackson. Before that he was a volume scorer who couldn't take average players deep into the playoffs, while Lebron did.

5. Jordan didn't face league-best competition at his position, as most other superstars played either PG, SF, PF, or Center. Listing off 80's/90's SG's offers a few all-time greats but not many. Drexler, Reggie Miller... that's about it. Meanwhile, in the 2000's/2010's, Lebron faced the likes of KD, Carmelo, T-Mac, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis, Paul George...

6. The Jordan Bulls faced historically weak NBA Finals opponents, not having to overcome any other championship team or dynasty (if we're being honest, that 1990-91 Lakers team was a shell of it's 80's self, you can't say Jordan beat the "Showtime Lakers"). Lebron had to deal with and beat 2 all-time dynasties in San Antonio (5 titles) and Golden State (4 titles). Knowing this, Lebron making it to 10 finals is a testament to his greatness, not some mark against him like MJ advocates like to cherry pick. They fall into the Bill Russell trap by saying "Rings!"... when Bill has 11 compared to MJ's mere 6.

7. After Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57-25 to 55-27. That proves that the Bulls were an elite team without Jordan. Let's look at how Lebron effected teams:

- Lebron Cavs 2010: 61-21. Next season 19-63 (-42)
- D-wade Heat 2010: 47-35. Lebron Heat 2011: 58-24 (+11)
- Lebron Heat 2013: 54-28. Next Season without: 37-45 (-17)
- Kyrie Cavs 2013: 33-49. Lebron Cavs 2014: 53-29 (+20)
- Lebron Cavs 2018: 50-32. Next season without: 19-63 (-31)

It's only until his First year in LA in his 16th season that he doesn't account for some major difference, although by the 2nd year he had the Lakers at 52-19 in the COVID year. While I'm not going to be dishonest and not mention that some of the Jumps for Lebron involved Chris Bosh in Miami, Kevin Love in Cleveland, etc... MJ also enjoyed major additions like Dennis Rodman/Toni Kukoc in their 2nd 3-peat. The data shows Lebron meant way more to his team's success than MJ did overall.

8. Lebron has 4 championships, but I say likely has at least 6 if:
- Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love aren't injured and out of the Finals in 2015. That's like MJ losing Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.. or Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman. The Bulls wouldn't have won a championship with either of those things happening.
- Kevin Durant pulls an unprecedented move, and as a prime-MVP player joins another prime MVP player in Steph Curry and a 73 win Warriors team. That's just never happened. Jordan never had to face anything like that, not even close.

9. Lebron had 2 MVP's yanked from him which he deserved (2010-2011 and 2007-2008). He should easily have 6. I lay out this argument here:

The 2 MVP's that were taken from Lebron

People who follow NBA history know that MVP fatigue is a thing. Each player has unique circumstances, and only a handful of players run into the phenomenon because they win so many. That list includes Lebron, MJ, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, and the most recent example...

sportshoop.la

10. Lebron is just a more balanced player, has elite scoring along with 7-8 rebounds and assists per game throughout his career... and has kept it up for way longer than MJ, dwarfing MJ's career numbers, and not taking breaks and retiring. I think it's fair to hold Jordan's absences against him, and I think his Bulls wouldn't have beaten the Rockets in 2004, and he came back in 2005 to lose to the Magic.