The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Mr. Friscus]

Who is the last player to be the mvp, finals mvp, first team all D, first team offense, lead the league in scoring, all star mvp in the same season?

I was talking about careers, not single seasons. If you want to talk about who had the greatest single season, that’s another discussion. I know Wilt dropped 50 points per game and like 20+ rebounds.. I’d start there.

To each their own but MJ was given goat status by majority of people out there. He didn’t have to insert himself like LeBron does

None of that is provable or really matters IMO

 

[Mr. Friscus]

In short, MJ's stranglehold on GOAT status is more tenuous than it's ever been and you can't seem to move past the anger phase of your grief process.

If he ever had a genuine one. The propaganda campaign by Nike, the NBA, and ESPN in the early 90’s was insane. That’s why you get such emotional angry responses when you try to discuss it. Many MJ supporters a have an evangelical religious fundamentalism in their viewpoint

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Oh you are angry I’m sure cause I was pretty spot on with my take so maybe your reading and comprehension is bad, it’s ok

LMAO

Jordan23: “Lebron is lame because he elevates himself”

Also Jordan23: “I was pretty spot on with my take”

 

[tlance]

Those 2 comments are diametrically opposed though

Of you look at everything there no argument for MJ without including subjectivity. But of you do that you can argue for anyone really c

You can absolutely make a fact based argument for MJ to be top 10 . That's reasonable. But not number 1. To do that you need to include eye test stuff which is inherently biased

If anyone cares to do a solely fact based argument vs the other all time greats im happy to listen to it

Ok, here goes.

This is fact BASED, but of course there is always going to be some level of subjectivity comparing players from different eras.

To me, a GOAT level player has to have all 4 of these things:

-Statistical dominance
-Top level Individual accolades
-Multiple championships with corresponding Finals MVPs
-Longevity

And to me there are only 3 players who meet all of these criteria at levels clearly above everyone else:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem

MVPs Awards

Jordan has the 2nd most MVP awards of all time tied with 5. Only Kareem had 1 more. Of course there is some subjectivity in these awards, as you can very easily make a case that all of LeBron, MJ and Kareem could have, or perhaps should have had more as each man was hands down the best player from their era.

MJ winning 5 in 15 seasons is incredibly impressive, especially considering he “retired” twice while performing at MVP level having won 2 of the prior 3 both times.

Easy to say Kareem has more, but Jordan very easily could have won 7 or 8.

Finals MVPs

This is the big one favoring Jordan. He and Kareem both have 6 rings. But Jordan has 6 Finals MVPs to Kareem’s 2.

Jordan was ALWAYS the best player on his title teams. Kareem was most definitely not the best player on at least 2-3 of his championship teams.

-Kareem and MJ have the same number of all NBA 1st team selections (10)

Kareem has more all defense selections (11-9), but all of Jordan’s were 1st team while Kareem only had 6 first team nods.

Jordan did win DPOY once. Kareem probably would have won at least a couple had the award been around before 1983, but we don’t know for sure so we can’t really use that to either player’s favor. Both were elite defenders at their positions in their prime.

Stats:

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, Kareem won 2 scoring titles

Kareem led the league in rebounding once, and blocks 4 times

Jordan led the league in steals 3 times

Both men were extremely impressive statistically, but MJ’s statistical dominance is on a slightly higher plane.

Want to give Kareem credit for more longevity? He deserves it. And that is his primary advantage over MJ. But peak brilliance, MJ simply has more going for him. Especially if you correctly discount some of Kareem’s Laker championships when Magic was the best player.

I’m not going to dissect MJ vs LeBron in this post because MJ has more of the things that matter most:

Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs

So pretty easy case to make there.

 

[rmilia1]

Ok, here goes.

This is fact BASED, but of course there is always going to be some level of subjectivity comparing players from different eras.

To me, a GOAT level player has to have all 4 of these things:

-Statistical dominance
-Top level Individual accolades
-Multiple championships with corresponding Finals MVPs
-Longevity

And to me there are only 3 players who meet all of these criteria at levels clearly above everyone else:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem

MVPs Awards

Jordan has the 2nd most MVP awards of all time tied with 5. Only Kareem had 1 more. Of course there is some subjectivity in these awards, as you can very easily make a case that all of LeBron, MJ and Kareem could have, or perhaps should have had more as each man was hands down the best player from their era.

MJ winning 5 in 15 seasons is incredibly impressive, especially considering he “retired” twice while performing at MVP level having won 2 of the prior 3 both times.

Easy to say Kareem has more, but Jordan very easily could have won 7 or 8.

Finals MVPs

This is the big one favoring Jordan. He and Kareem both have 6 rings. But Jordan has 6 Finals MVPs to Kareem’s 2.

Jordan was ALWAYS the best player on his title teams. Kareem was most definitely not the best player on at least 2-3 of his championship teams.

-Kareem and MJ have the same number of all NBA 1st team selections (10)

Kareem has more all defense selections (11-9), but all of Jordan’s were 1st team while Kareem only had 6 first team nods.

Jordan did win DPOY once. Kareem probably would have won at least a couple had the award been around before 1983, but we don’t know for sure so we can’t really use that to either player’s favor. Both were elite defenders at their positions in their prime.

Stats:

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, Kareem won 2 scoring titles

Kareem led the league in rebounding once, and blocks 4 times

Jordan led the league in steals 3 times

Both men were extremely impressive statistically, but MJ’s statistical dominance is on a slightly higher plane.

Want to give Kareem credit for more longevity? He deserves it. And that is his primary advantage over MJ. But peak brilliance, MJ simply has more going for him. Especially if you correctly discount some of Kareem’s Laker championships when Magic was the best player.

I’m not going to dissect MJ vs LeBron in this post because MJ has more of the things that matter most:

Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs

So pretty easy case to make there.

Good post

Not sure i agree on the dominance party going to MJ a KAJs peak was at least just a good ( 34/14/6 over 6 seasons ) but still well articulated

 

[tlance]

Good post

Not sure i agree on the dominance party going to MJ a KAJs peak was at least just a good ( 34/14/6 over 6 seasons ) but still well articulated

Yeah, I don’t believe that MJ is the undisputed GOAT.

Just that it is pretty easy to use facts to make a strong case for all 3.

 

[Jordan23]

I was talking about careers, not single seasons. If you want to talk about who had the greatest single season, that’s another discussion. I know Wilt dropped 50 points per game and like 20+ rebounds.. I’d start there.

None of that is provable or really matters IMO

Jordan did that 4 times in his career and nobody else had a single time.

 

[Jordan23]

LMAO

Jordan23: “Lebron is lame because he elevates himself”

Also Jordan23: “I was pretty spot on with my take”

Only I said nothing close to that