The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Jiddy]

It’s not much to read, but if you're scared, I guess that’s on you l

You’d have a point if he didn’t go right out and play baseball, which he did

And it’s likely Jordan’s gambling got his dad killed. We know this.

*sigh*

He played baseball because his father played baseball and it was his father's favorite sport. His father actually played baseball. I grew up with this story living in Chicago so I take it for granted that it is common knowledge.

The tone of your post is one that doesn't deserve response...I'm only here to correct the egregious that solidifies any further discussion is through a lense of falsity. IE: Your position is so hardlined and tunnel-visioned that it's pointless to argue you. Scared? Nah...I'm just older and don't bother with bullsh*t shark-jumping type stuff. I'm sure you make all the ladies' panties' drop on the call in radio talk shows though with these drive by positions...Well, if you weren't a bot.

 

[Jiddy]

You're forgetting a few details.

1.) There is speculation that MJ's father was killed because of his (MJ's) gambling. Obviously, speculation is not fact or proof...but MJ is/was known to be not only a big gambler...but wasn't exactly the GOAT at it. It's also been said that he, at least at the time, wasn't exactly "timely" about paying his gambling debts.

2.) There is also speculation that his first "retirement" was actually a suspension, but they called it a "retirement" because of his stature and how bad a look having their best, most popular player mixed up in a gambling scandal would be. Again, speculation is not proof, but again, we know how big a gambler MJ is/was.

3.) The story presented at the time was that he "retired" and went to play professional baseball because it was his dad's favorite sport and he wanted to honor him. That story was always considered suspect, especially when you consider he didn't put real effort into it.

I get it...for MJ apologists, Lebron is the first real threat to MJ's perceived "GOAT status"...so y'all are using anything you can to try to disparage Lebron because the actual numbers show that, at the least, Lebron should be solidly in the GOAT conversation...if not considered the GOAT.

And for the record, I don't consider MJ or Lebron to be the GOAT, at least not by themselves...I have 3 in the GOAT convo (MJ, Lebron and Kareem).

Yes...Everyone in Chicago that lived it knows about the gambling conspiracy. I actually read the Jordan Rules by Sam Smith (probably the only one on this board). I don't buy it. Jordan wasn't stealth banned. Think how stupid that actually sounds? On a related note, I still to this day believe the guy that was reading excerpts from that book behind the Bulls' bench is possibly the greatest fan troll in history. That was pretty funny. Even the players couldn't help but laugh about it.

Sometimes it's pretty easy to dissect this stuff...Dude reached the top of the mountain...His dad got killed...He stepped back and took on a new beginning, one that honored his dad. Got the itch again because time heals (and because he stunk at baseball) and came back...and reached the top of the mountain again.

Blah blah blah gambling...as if that has any bearing on whether he was the greatest athlete or not...and, even moreso, in response to my actual comment...which was in response to jackass OP claiming "the kitchen got to hot" or some bullsh*t. He's not being sincere with this post. He has an agenda (create content either via botting of smurfing) and flaming fires. It's intellectually dishonest in the worst way....with the projection that it is actually the opposite.

Basically OP:

 

[rmilia1]

Theres almost no fact based argument to be made that MJ is the GOAT

He didn't have the most rings

He didn't have the most MVPs

He doesn't have the most All NBA nods, all defensive nods or all star nods

He doesn't have the most points, rebounds, assosts, blocks, straps

He doesn't have the most dominant prone


Every "MJ is the GOAT" argument Jones on subjective criteria like "will to win", "clutch", "killer instinct"

Things that are all based on opinion not facts so you can't argue against them because it's not based on anything tangible

Look at MJ vs Kareem ( for example )

Kareem has

Same amount of rings with more troops to the Finals

More

MVPs
All NBA
All defense
All Star

More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

There not a legit argument for MJ over Kareem that is fact nased unless you're only choosing to look at a few specific things and not everything

The entire reason MJ is considered the GOAT is because he came into his prominence at the height of the leagies explosion in popularity ( thanks to Magic and Bird ) and he capitalized on the vacuum that was created when they left. You then add on that list nearly all the people who get paid to discuss this topic are of the age now where they grew up watching MJs entire career and its the perfect storm for him right now


I'll be fascinated to see where this debate is on 25 years ( once those people who call MJ the GOAT aren't in those positions to amplify that thought anymore )

I sincerely doubt he's like at a even a top 3 player in 25 years. His resume just isn't good enough to sustain being in the discussion once people who've never seen him play are the ones discussing it

He's not Bill Russell. Not enough rings

He's not even Wilt dominance wise

 

[trojanfan12]

Yes...Everyone in Chicago that lived it knows about the gambling conspiracy. I actually read the Jordan Rules by Sam Smith (probably the only one on this board). I don't buy it. Jordan wasn't stealth banned. Think how stupid that actually sounds? On a related note, I still to this day believe the guy that was reading excerpts from that book behind the Bulls' bench is possibly the greatest fan troll in history. That was pretty funny. Even the players couldn't help but laugh about it.

Yeah, I guarantee you that you're not the only to read it. You "not buying it" doesn't mean it didn't happen. Considering everything else that we know about his gambling and that it's known that he was n't very good at gambling and was slow to repay gambling debts...dismissing the possibility out of hand, is what sounds stupid.

Ftr, I'm not convinced and tend to lean that it wasn't a "stealth ban", but given everything else we know, I accept that it's possible that it was. Especially considering the NBA was trying to grow from the national prominence that it gained from Magic and Bird to the international prominence that it was gaining from MJ and from the Dream Team.

Sometimes it's pretty easy to dissect this stuff...Dude reached the top of the mountain...His dad got killed...He stepped back and took on a new beginning, one that honored his dad. Got the itch again because time heals (and because he stunk at baseball) and came back...and reached the top of the mountain again.

It's also easy to dissect in a way that isn't so favorable to MJ when considering his gambling. He didn't give baseball a real chance. If he did, he wouldn't have quit so quickly. Especially considering how "competitive" he supposedly is/was.

I do find it interesting that MJ apologists who always use his competitive nature to bolster the argument for his GOAT status so willingly accept that he just "quit" baseball when he was supposedly honoring his dad. Seems counter intuitive.

Blah blah blah gambling...as if that has any bearing on whether he was the greatest athlete or not...and, even moreso, in response to my actual comment...which was in response to jackass OP claiming "the kitchen got to hot" or some bullsh*t. He's not being sincere with this post. He has an agenda (create content either via botting of smurfing) and flaming fires. It's intellectually dishonest in the worst way....with the projection that it is actually the opposite.

It's also intellectually dishonest to misrepresent what has been said...no one said that his gambling had anything to do with his greatness as an athlete. The OP posted that he quit, the OP didn't imply that it was due to gambling, he just questioned someone who was supposedly the most competitive player in the league...quitting after winning 3 straight titles rather than trying to get a 4th.

You brought up his Dad being murdered and I pointed out the speculation around why he was murdered.

No one claimed that it changed anything about his greatness as a player.

 

[trojanfan12]

Theres almost no fact based argument to be made that MJ is the GOAT

He didn't have the most rings

He didn't have the most MVPs

He doesn't have the most All NBA nods, all defensive nods or all star nods

He doesn't have the most points, rebounds, assosts, blocks, straps

He doesn't have the most dominant prone


Every "MJ is the GOAT" argument Jones on subjective criteria like "will to win", "clutch", "killer instinct"

Things that are all based on opinion not facts so you can't argue against them because it's not based on anything tangible

Look at MJ vs Kareem ( for example )

Kareem has

Same amount of rings with more troops to the Finals

More

MVPs
All NBA
All defense
All Star

More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

There not a legit argument for MJ over Kareem that is fact nased unless you're only choosing to look at a few specific things and not everything

The entire reason MJ is considered the GOAT is because he came into his prominence at the height of the leagies explosion in popularity ( thanks to Magic and Bird ) and he capitalized on the vacuum that was created when they left. You then add on that list nearly all the people who get paid to discuss this topic are of the age now where they grew up watching MJs entire career and its the perfect storm for him right now


I'll be fascinated to see where this debate is on 25 years ( once those people who call MJ the GOAT aren't in those positions to amplify that thought anymore )

I sincerely doubt he's like at a even a top 3 player in 25 years. His resume just isn't good enough to sustain being in the discussion once people who've never seen him play are the ones discussing it

He's not Bill Russell. Not enough rings

He's not even Wilt dominance wise

Well stated.

I don't believe in 1 GOAT ("to rule them all" lol)...but I do like the GOAT convo and don't believe that any one player sits above all others as GOAT.

For me, I've always had 3 players in my GOAT convo...it used to be MJ, Kareem and Magic, but along came Lebron who is/was a bigger, stronger, faster version of Magic and had to, veeeery grudgingly replace him with Lebron.

The thing with those 3 is that you can make a strong case for any of them and also counter it with facts from what at least one of the other 2 have done.

For example...Kareem has the same number of rings as MJ...but how many was he considered "Batman" for? 3? 4 maybe? MJ was Batman for all 6 of his and Lebron was Batman for all 5 of his.

Both Kareem and Lebron have more title appearances than MJ.

 

[Jordan23]

I’d imagine it would be if you’re an MJ devotee

Which points does your vague ambiguous claim negate?

He routinely shot over 30 attempts per game.

Oh stop the excuses. We’re talking GOAT here. If you’re going to exalt Jordan for his scoring, you have to bring up that he shot way more than anyone else. He wasn’t always efficient

You can write your own fiction, that’s fine. It seems like you carefully skimmed over the top and didn’t want to address much of the holes in MJ’s GOAT argument

Who is the last player to be the mvp, finals mvp, first team all D, first team offense, lead the league in scoring, all star mvp in the same season? To each their own but MJ was given goat status by majority of people out there. He didn’t have to insert himself like LeBron does

 

[rmilia1]

Well stated.

I don't believe in 1 GOAT ("to rule them all" lol)...but I do like the GOAT convo and don't believe that any one player sits above all others as GOAT.

For me, I've always had 3 players in my GOAT convo...it used to be MJ, Kareem and Magic, but along came Lebron who is/was a bigger, stronger, faster version of Magic and had to, veeeery grudgingly replace him with Lebron.

The thing with those 3 is that you can make a strong case for any of them and also counter it with facts from what at least one of the other 2 have done.

For example...Kareem has the same number of rings as MJ...but how many was he considered "Batman" for? 3? 4 maybe? MJ was Batman for all 6 of his and Lebron was Batman for all 5 of his.

Both Kareem and Lebron have more title appearances than MJ.

A lot of that is perception based though to be fair

The Lakers don't win any rings without Kareem and you could easily say the same thing about the Bulls re Pippen, Heat with Wadw/Cavs with Kyrie/Lakers with AD

Batman is perception more than reality. Like Pippen led the Bulls in more stats during the title runs than MJ all while guarding the other teams best player

But people thought of MJ a the guy on those teams because he was the scorer abd that's the guy who usually is seen as the guy

 

[Jordan23]

This should be the LeBron statue when he retires. He’s the best at it

 

[trojanfan12]

A lot of that is perception based though to be fair

The Lakers don't win any rings without Kareem and you could easily say the same thing about the Bulls re Pippen, Heat with Wadw/Cavs with Kyrie/Lakers with AD

Batman is perception more than reality. Like Pippen led the Bulls in more stats during the title runs than MJ all while guarding the other teams best player

But people thought of MJ a the guy on those teams because he was the scorer abd that's the guy who usually is seen as the guy

Oh, I agree. Batman is the designation we give to the perceived "leader". The old "whose team is it" question.

Kareem was the Batman or leader for probably the first couple of titles, then it was Magic...but none of those titles are happening without both of them.

MJ is considered the Batman for the Bulls 6 titles...but they don't happen without Pippen (and maybe Phil too).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Theres almost no fact based argument to be made that MJ is the GOAT

He didn't have the most rings

He didn't have the most MVPs

He doesn't have the most All NBA nods, all defensive nods or all star nods

He doesn't have the most points, rebounds, assosts, blocks, straps

He doesn't have the most dominant prone


Every "MJ is the GOAT" argument Jones on subjective criteria like "will to win", "clutch", "killer instinct"

Things that are all based on opinion not facts so you can't argue against them because it's not based on anything tangible

Look at MJ vs Kareem ( for example )

Kareem has

Same amount of rings with more troops to the Finals

More

MVPs
All NBA
All defense
All Star

More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

There not a legit argument for MJ over Kareem that is fact nased unless you're only choosing to look at a few specific things and not everything

The entire reason MJ is considered the GOAT is because he came into his prominence at the height of the leagies explosion in popularity ( thanks to Magic and Bird ) and he capitalized on the vacuum that was created when they left. You then add on that list nearly all the people who get paid to discuss this topic are of the age now where they grew up watching MJs entire career and its the perfect storm for him right now


I'll be fascinated to see where this debate is on 25 years ( once those people who call MJ the GOAT aren't in those positions to amplify that thought anymore )

I sincerely doubt he's like at a even a top 3 player in 25 years. His resume just isn't good enough to sustain being in the discussion once people who've never seen him play are the ones discussing it

He's not Bill Russell. Not enough rings

He's not even Wilt dominance wise

You left out one important thing. Jordan was also flashy. He made wow factor plays. Which makes him win the eye test. And that is all people care about.

 

[Jiddy]

Yeah, I guarantee you that you're not the only to read it. You "not buying it" doesn't mean it didn't happen. Considering everything else that we know about his gambling and that it's known that he was n't very good at gambling and was slow to repay gambling debts...dismissing the possibility out of hand, is what sounds stupid.

Ftr, I'm not convinced and tend to lean that it wasn't a "stealth ban", but given everything else we know, I accept that it's possible that it was. Especially considering the NBA was trying to grow from the national prominence that it gained from Magic and Bird to the international prominence that it was gaining from MJ and from the Dream Team.


It's also easy to dissect in a way that isn't so favorable to MJ when considering his gambling. He didn't give baseball a real chance. If he did, he wouldn't have quit so quickly. Especially considering how "competitive" he supposedly is/was.

I do find it interesting that MJ apologists who always use his competitive nature to bolster the argument for his GOAT status so willingly accept that he just "quit" baseball when he was supposedly honoring his dad. Seems counter intuitive.



It's also intellectually dishonest to misrepresent what has been said...no one said that his gambling had anything to do with his greatness as an athlete. The OP posted that he quit, the OP didn't imply that it was due to gambling, he just questioned someone who was supposedly the most competitive player in the league...quitting after winning 3 straight titles rather than trying to get a 4th.

You brought up his Dad being murdered and I pointed out the speculation around why he was murdered.

No one claimed that it changed anything about his greatness as a player.

I would be astonished if another person on this small board read that book from 33 years ago.

Whether or not I buy into the gambling deal doesn't change the fact that it is what it is...A conspiracy.

You're the one that brought up the gambling. You got responded to in kind. *shrugs*

Whether or not it's fair or not in your opinion or whoever else's, I have zero doubt that the OP has any real interest in this topic other than to stoke flames or, at best, push content on this site. Nobody would start an honest, unbiased conversation with the commentary I specifically responded to.

 

[trojanfan12]

I would be astonished if another person on this small board read that book from 33 years ago.

Whether or not I buy into the gambling deal doesn't change the fact that it is what it is...A conspiracy.

You're the one that brought up the gambling. You got responded to in kind. *shrugs*

Whether or not it's fair or not in your opinion or whoever else's, I have zero doubt that the OP has any real interest in this topic other than to stoke flames or, at best, push content on this site. Nobody would start an honest, unbiased conversation with the commentary I specifically responded to.

You can be "astonished" all you want. The main posters are this forum are all serious, die-hard basketball fans...so no, you're not the only one who has read that book.

I said I was the one who brought up the gambling.

Additionally, if you're so convinced about the OP's "real interest" and feel it's not honest...why respond?

Ftr, your own responses speak to your own "real interest" and lack of interest in an "honest, unbiased conversation".

 

[trojanfan12]

Who is the last player to be the mvp, finals mvp, first team all D, first team offense, lead the league in scoring, all star mvp in the same season? To each their own but MJ was given goat status by majority of people out there. He didn’t have to insert himself like LeBron does

One season does not a GOAT make. And yes, MJ was given GOAT status by a majority...as was Bill Russell before him. At this point, more and more people are starting to see Lebron as GOAT, which is why you're here always desperately trying to tear down Lebron and respond to actual statistics presented with opinion that you try to pretend is fact.

In fact, not only has Lebron put himself on, at the least, damn near equal footing in the GOAT convo, Kareem has been picking up supporters too.

In short, MJ's stranglehold on GOAT status is more tenuous than it's ever been and you can't seem to move past the anger phase of your grief process.

 

[rmilia1]

You can be "astonished" all you want. The main posters are this forum are all serious, die-hard basketball fans...so no, you're not the only one who has read that book.

I said I was the one who brought up the gambling.

Additionally, if you're so convinced about the OP's "real interest" and feel it's not honest...why respond?

Ftr, your own responses speak to your own "real interest" and lack of interest in an "honest, unbiased conversation".

The thing that is very very interesting about the ban is that it occurred very soon after the aFBI found MJs name in a bookies log that was attacked to his father's death

And MJ came back very soon after it became clear he was not going to be facing any charges in relation

Those things could be coincidence but it's also entirely possible they're not and if they'd happened in today's game with the 24 hr news cycle and social media it would likely be seen as a foregone conclusion that it was a ban not a conspiracy theory

 

[Ojb81]

Theres almost no fact based argument to be made that MJ is the GOAT

He didn't have the most rings

He didn't have the most MVPs

He doesn't have the most All NBA nods, all defensive nods or all star nods

He doesn't have the most points, rebounds, assosts, blocks, straps

He doesn't have the most dominant prone


Every "MJ is the GOAT" argument Jones on subjective criteria like "will to win", "clutch", "killer instinct"

Things that are all based on opinion not facts so you can't argue against them because it's not based on anything tangible

Look at MJ vs Kareem ( for example )

Kareem has

Same amount of rings with more troops to the Finals

More

MVPs
All NBA
All defense
All Star

More points
More rebounds
More assists
More blocks

There not a legit argument for MJ over Kareem that is fact nased unless you're only choosing to look at a few specific things and not everything

The entire reason MJ is considered the GOAT is because he came into his prominence at the height of the leagies explosion in popularity ( thanks to Magic and Bird ) and he capitalized on the vacuum that was created when they left. You then add on that list nearly all the people who get paid to discuss this topic are of the age now where they grew up watching MJs entire career and its the perfect storm for him right now


I'll be fascinated to see where this debate is on 25 years ( once those people who call MJ the GOAT aren't in those positions to amplify that thought anymore )

I sincerely doubt he's like at a even a top 3 player in 25 years. His resume just isn't good enough to sustain being in the discussion once people who've never seen him play are the ones discussing it

He's not Bill Russell. Not enough rings

He's not even Wilt dominance wise

Bill Russell?? are you joking?? holy fucking shite, wow. . .

 

[Jordan23]

One season does not a GOAT make. And yes, MJ was given GOAT status by a majority...as was Bill Russell before him. At this point, more and more people are starting to see Lebron as GOAT, which is why you're here always desperately trying to tear down Lebron and respond to actual statistics presented with opinion that you try to pretend is fact.

In fact, not only has Lebron put himself on, at the least, damn near equal footing in the GOAT convo, Kareem has been picking up supporters too.

In short, MJ's stranglehold on GOAT status is more tenuous than it's ever been and you can't seem to move past the anger phase of your grief process.

Jordan did that 4 times, guess how many other times it’s been done in nba history? Zero

 

[Jordan23]

One season does not a GOAT make. And yes, MJ was given GOAT status by a majority...as was Bill Russell before him. At this point, more and more people are starting to see Lebron as GOAT, which is why you're here always desperately trying to tear down Lebron and respond to actual statistics presented with opinion that you try to pretend is fact.

In fact, not only has Lebron put himself on, at the least, damn near equal footing in the GOAT convo, Kareem has been picking up supporters too.

In short, MJ's stranglehold on GOAT status is more tenuous than it's ever been and you can't seem to move past the anger phase of your grief process.

The funny part is with LeBron, Kareem, MJ etc, none of them called themselves the goat, none of them had to hype themselves and be an arrogant prick like LeBron does. None of them cried and flopped anywhere close to anything like LeBron does. None of them needed “load management”. They wanted to play every minute. They had a killer mentality in them on the court. They were feared. Lebron is literally not scaring anyone cause they laugh at him and how he has tantrums so damn much, hence a big reason ratings are down. Game is soft and full of whining and flopping.

 

[msgkings322]

The thing that is very very interesting about the ban is that it occurred very soon after the aFBI found MJs name in a bookies log that was attacked to his father's death

And MJ came back very soon after it became clear he was not going to be facing any charges in relation

Those things could be coincidence but it's also entirely possible they're not and if they'd happened in today's game with the 24 hr news cycle and social media it would likely be seen as a foregone conclusion that it was a ban not a conspiracy theory

It's easy to speculate that MJ's image would be quite different if he played in the modern era with the social media world

 

[rmilia1]

Bill Russell?? are you joking?? holy fucking shite, wow. . .

To remain in the GOAT discussion AFTER the people who saw you play are gone you need tangible facts

Russell has 11 rings so has remained at least on the periphery of the discussion

MJ isn't the best at anything. His GOAT status is solely due to eye test stuff.

Which is fine when the people having the discussion have seen you

Once they haven't seen you the eye test stuff is rendered moot

 

[Ojb81]

To remain in the GOAT discussion AFTER the people who saw you play are gone you need tangible facts

Russell has 11 rings so has remained at least on the periphery of the discussion

MJ isn't the best at anything. His GOAT status is solely due to eye test stuff.

Which is fine when the people having the discussion have seen you

Once they haven't seen you the eye test stuff is rendered moot

There's this thing called recorded video, it's very handy. Allows people to view events from the past, it can be very helpful when, y'know, you're wanting to see just how great someone might have been at a sport like basetball in the distant past