Should Cavs Trade Wiggins for Love?

[HammerDown]

 

[Shanemansj13]

[MEDIA=twitter]489499729961971714[/MEDIA]

Nice avi. Tony was a class act

 

[Agent Orange]

Keeping Wiggins is best for the future but the Cavs wouldn't make it out the East with this lineup.

I'd argue that he'd have a good excuse this year, youth and inexperience, he doesn't need to win the title this year anyway. Aside from a healthy Bulls team and Wade deaging there are no teams in the East that I would favor against the Cavs. The Pacers aren't nearly as threatening now that Lance is gone, maybe I'm over looking Atlanta?

 

[Agent Orange]

[MEDIA=twitter]489499729961971714[/MEDIA]

Hmm the Cavs added two wing players... Could they be looking to deal? It could just be good depth:

2 - Wiggins/Waiters, Miller
3 - James, Miller, Jones

 

[LogicMan]

Hammer interesting post and nice avi as well. No mention of Gwynn at the all star game.................pathetic

 

[wildturkey]

You do realize that by going over the cap you are spending 1.5-3x dollar for dollar on any amount over the cap. And then you are not eligible for Luxury Tax payment sharing. Adding Love & resigning him long term would likely put the team when fully constructed, $20+ mil over the tax threshold. For smaller & mid market team, that has a huge impact. We are talking about a $70+ mil negative swing in revenue. Sure Lebron will increase the Cavs revenue, but that is a lot of money to think about for a city like Cleveland.

That is why you don't see teams outside of large markets exceed the tax threshold, & when they do, it's only by a few mil.

What is ironic about these draconian penalties, is that Gilbert was one of the owners who lobbied heavily for them & now is going to be effected by them.

As for trading Wiggins, if your Cleveland, you do it in a heartbeat. Wigging being just 19, it's going to take at least 3 seasons before we start seeing him tap his true potential. Cleveland should be in "win now" mode seeing as they likely only have a 3-4 year window. Love instantly makes the Cavs a favorite to reach the finals, & do so consistently.

You might be trading away "future potential" but you're getting back a current Allstar top 10 talent, production machine. 25+ & 12+ every single night while being the main focus opposing defenses 82 games a season. The guy gets buckets & boards. Not many, if any, in the NBA can do it like Love can.

Absolutely I realize it. But a lot of these small market teams that cry poor are much better off than they indicate on paper. And do you think Lebron would sign with Cleveland if Dan Gilbert was never willing to pay the luxury tax? He loves Ohio, but not that much. He didn't go back just for the love of Ohio and to watch Gilbert pinch pennies. Getting Love and resigning him is a non-issue for Cleveland. We already have proof. Because if it wasn't financially worth it, they wouldn't have already made a trade offer for him.

 

[hockey878]

Absolutely I realize it. But a lot of these small market teams that cry poor are much better off than they indicate on paper. And do you think Lebron would sign with Cleveland if Dan Gilbert was never willing to pay the luxury tax? He loves Ohio, but not that much. He didn't go back just for the love of Ohio and to watch Gilbert pinch pennies. Getting Love and resigning him is a non-issue for Cleveland. We already have proof. Because if it wasn't financially worth it, they wouldn't have already made a trade offer for him.

also, pretty sure the luxury tax doesn't kick in right after you over the cap. I think there is actually a different threshold for the luxury tax. something like 77 million. So you can go a pretty decent amount over and still avoid the tax.

Long story short, resigning love isn't the hard part. acquiring him is.

also, the notion that GS deal is "much better" than CLE is astonishing to me. Saying that Guys like Green and Barnes are ready to contribue NOW. But Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters arent is nuts. Also, Thompson and Waiters have much higher potential than green and barnes. Why you would place any value on David lee is beyond me. he isn't going to be able to be a good number 1 option on a team and is leaving his prime.

Basically, you can get 2-3 young guys with a lot of potential, two of whom have been pretty productive in their short careers (one who struggled mightily). Or you can get David lee who is a good 3rd option at this point and a couple of role players. And if you replace one of those guys with wiggins i don't think you could ask to get much more for a guy who wants to leave anyway

Getting Bennett, Thompson and Waiters and 2-3 first round picks is about as good as Minny will do unless they manage to get Klay.

 

[Shanemansj13]

also, pretty sure the luxury tax doesn't kick in right after you over the cap. I think there is actually a different threshold for the luxury tax. something like 77 million. So you can go a pretty decent amount over and still avoid the tax.

Long story short, resigning love isn't the hard part. acquiring him is.

also, the notion that GS deal is "much better" than CLE is astonishing to me. Saying that Guys like Green and Barnes are ready to contribue NOW. But Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters arent is nuts. Also, Thompson and Waiters have much higher potential than green and barnes. Why you would place any value on David lee is beyond me. he isn't going to be able to be a good number 1 option on a team and is leaving his prime.

Basically, you can get 2-3 young guys with a lot of potential, two of whom have been pretty productive in their short careers (one who struggled mightily). Or you can get David lee who is a good 3rd option at this point and a couple of role players. And if you replace one of those guys with wiggins i don't think you could ask to get much more for a guy who wants to leave anyway

Getting Bennett, Thompson and Waiters and 2-3 first round picks is about as good as Minny will do unless they manage to get Klay.

 

[trojanfight]

Cleveland should trade wiggins for noah vonleh...its the right thing to do. return a gift they didn't deserve.

 

[LogicMan]

Still don't know how Vonleh fell in the draft

 

[dirtboy068]

i don't know why but I just don't buy love as an elite player. I think he is the modern antawn Jamison. someone has to score for teams that don't have much. u join a good team and the player just isn't the same player

how could you say that? even on a bad team his stats speak for themselves.

 

[starbigd]

also, pretty sure the luxury tax doesn't kick in right after you over the cap. I think there is actually a different threshold for the luxury tax. something like 77 million. So you can go a pretty decent amount over and still avoid the tax.

Long story short, resigning love isn't the hard part. acquiring him is.

also, the notion that GS deal is "much better" than CLE is astonishing to me. Saying that Guys like Green and Barnes are ready to contribue NOW. But Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters arent is nuts. Also, Thompson and Waiters have much higher potential than green and barnes. Why you would place any value on David lee is beyond me. he isn't going to be able to be a good number 1 option on a team and is leaving his prime.

Basically, you can get 2-3 young guys with a lot of potential, two of whom have been pretty productive in their short careers (one who struggled mightily). Or you can get David lee who is a good 3rd option at this point and a couple of role players. And if you replace one of those guys with wiggins i don't think you could ask to get much more for a guy who wants to leave anyway

Getting Bennett, Thompson and Waiters and 2-3 first round picks is about as good as Minny will do unless they manage to get Klay.

This is where we disagree. I've watched TT since he was at Texas.....and no, his potential is NOT higher than Barnes OR Green. Not even close.

Waiters is good.....but he's not better than Barnes either. I know very FEW people that have watched all these players that think TT/Bennett/Waiters is a better combo than Green/Barnes/Lee.

To me it's not even close.

 

[cwalke3408]

I'm not sure if last year's Heat were better than the Cavs right now. In my mind, LBJ's workload will only decrease in Cleveland. He no longer has to be the primary ballhandler with an actual PG on the team and I hear that Wiggins is already a good defender. This leaves a lot more room for LBJ to focus on playing his type of game, instead of worrying about Wade's health, Bosh's touches (or the fact that he's a PF playing C) or all the aging roleplayers Miami had last year. We'll have to wait and see what happens on the court, but I wouldn't be surprised if LBJ had a career year.

I will say this though, competition in the East has increased a little bit, and it won't be as easy as it was for him to make it to the Finals with the Cavs.

But the Heat had experience and chemistry, something the Cavs will have to learn like the Heat had to do. And Chris Bosh > Varejao.

 

[Shanemansj13]

This is where we disagree. I've watched TT since he was at Texas.....and no, his potential is NOT higher than Barnes OR Green. Not even close.

Waiters is good.....but he's not better than Barnes either. I know very FEW people that have watched all these players that think TT/Bennett/Waiters is a better combo than Green/Barnes/Lee.

To me it's not even close.

How can you say Barnes or Green isn't better or doesn't have a higher potential. Barnes has not progressed at all, and I'm kind of surprised. Waiters can become a good to great scorer in this league, that alone is something Barnes or Green will never have the capability to. And how can say that when they ride the bench. At least Waiters as shown some promise, Barnes and Green are just average joes.

And I have watched all these players, college and pros. Thompson has improved, but at least he can rebound and defend, their is nothing great about these two players (Green and Barnes). They are young, that's about it.

If Minny makes that trade they will regret it horribly.

 

[starbigd]

How can you say Barnes or Green isn't better or doesn't have a higher potential. Barnes has not progressed at all, and I'm kind of surprised. Waiters can become a good to great scorer in this league, that alone is something Barnes or Green will never have the capability to. And how can say that when they ride the bench. At least Waiters as shown some promise, Barnes and Green are just average joes.

And I have watched all these players, college and pros. Thompson has improved, but at least he can rebound and defend, their is nothing great about these two players (Green and Barnes). They are young, that's about it.

If Minny makes that trade they will regret it horribly.

That is your opinion. Green and Barnes are FAR from average joes. Barnes is a de facto starter and you can't put a price on what Green brings off the bench.....scoring, defense, and energy. I'll take them both over a developing Thompson and Waiters.

 

[hockey878]

That is your opinion. Green and Barnes are FAR from average joes. Barnes is a de facto starter and you can't put a price on what Green brings off the bench.....scoring, defense, and energy. I'll take them both over a developing Thompson and Waiters.

So I guess the real difference here is how we value the talent/potential of the pieces.

I see the cavs guys as much better long term prospects. Waiters can be a 20ppg guy without Kyrie IMO. Thompson is a good banger and rebounder. Bennett had a bad year, but potential is still there if he gets his act together. If you replace bennett with wiggins its seems Minny can't do better unless they get Klay from GS.

I will say Lee is better than any of them at this point. I just don't know why you trade for a 32 year old PF who isn't a solid first option, won't develop into one, and will likely be gone as soon as his contract is up.

You get waiters and thompson and you have a lineup that looks pretty good, with pieces that complement each other well. (scorers, playmakers, shooters, grit)

PG-Rubio, Levine (good playmakers), Barea
SG-Waiters, K-Mart (Pure scorers here)
SF- Budinger (shooting), Brewer (defender)
PF-THompson (banger), Bennett (stretch 4)
C- Pekovic (anchor), Dieng (solid young guy)

That team has a pretty good chance to compete now. But in 2-3 years it could be a LOADED team. They'd pick up draft picks as well so that would help them fill holes. Cle has Miami's draft pick next year Top 10 protected, so that is likely to be late teens early 20's. Minny could sure use that.

Like i said, i guess we just have different valuations on the trade pieces of each team. Barned and Green haven't done much to impress me. Lee just doesn't have much value, he isnt going to put you over the top and he doesn't have long term potential.

 

[trojanfan12]

how could you say that? even on a bad team his stats speak for themselves.

I've never understood the "he's just a good player on a bad team, his stats would drop on a good team" criticism.

Of course a players stats are going to drop if he's on a good team. It's called having help and not having to carry the entire load.

2 of Kobe's 3 highest scoring seasons in his career were in the 3 seasons after Shaq left and he was pretty much all the Lakers had. Once he got help, his ppg dropped because he had help, not because he "wasn't the same player".

 

[Shanemansj13]

So I guess the real difference here is how we value the talent/potential of the pieces.

I see the cavs guys as much better long term prospects. Waiters can be a 20ppg guy without Kyrie IMO. Thompson is a good banger and rebounder. Bennett had a bad year, but potential is still there if he gets his act together. If you replace bennett with wiggins its seems Minny can't do better unless they get Klay from GS.

I will say Lee is better than any of them at this point. I just don't know why you trade for a 32 year old PF who isn't a solid first option, won't develop into one, and will likely be gone as soon as his contract is up.

You get waiters and thompson and you have a lineup that looks pretty good, with pieces that complement each other well. (scorers, playmakers, shooters, grit)

PG-Rubio, Levine (good playmakers), Barea
SG-Waiters, K-Mart (Pure scorers here)
SF- Budinger (shooting), Brewer (defender)
PF-THompson (banger), Bennett (stretch 4)
C- Pekovic (anchor), Dieng (solid young guy)

That team has a pretty good chance to compete now. But in 2-3 years it could be a LOADED team. They'd pick up draft picks as well so that would help them fill holes. Cle has Miami's draft pick next year Top 10 protected, so that is likely to be late teens early 20's. Minny could sure use that.

Like i said, i guess we just have different valuations on the trade pieces of each team. Barned and Green haven't done much to impress me. Lee just doesn't have much value, he isnt going to put you over the top and he doesn't have long term potential.

You throw Wig in there instead of Bennett and you are looking at in the next couple years Waiters and Wig being one of the best duos scoring wise in the league. That is dangerous of they would stay in Minmy.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I've never understood the "he's just a good player on a bad team, his stats would drop on a good team" criticism.

Of course a players stats are going to drop if he's on a good team. It's called having help and not having to carry the entire load.

2 of Kobe's 3 highest scoring seasons in his career were in the 3 seasons after Shaq left and he was pretty much all the Lakers had. Once he got help, his ppg dropped because he had help, not because he "wasn't the same player".

Yep, same thing with Lebron he wasn't a 28-30 ppg game scorer. But for him his assists and rebounds pretry much were there, but this happens to just about every player when they get a better team around them.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

But the Heat had experience and chemistry, something the Cavs will have to learn like the Heat had to do. And Chris Bosh > Varejao.

True, it's going to be fun finding out, Cavs vs Heat is going to be good.