Royals take the series from the Tigers, again

[MiamiVice]

It's not.

Yes.. it is... Pitchers change the way they pitch... And defenses change alignments... Anyone that played baseball above high school knows that. Stat don't show everything... You can show me any stat you want... But it won't change reality... Is a free throw harder down a point with 2 seconds to go? People that lean on stats to much miss human elements like pressure, and obvious stuff like defensive shifts and pitching technique get thrown out... Having a man on third forces defenses to have to play the squeeze... It changes the way outfielders play.... Its not the same.

 

[navamind]

Coco Crisp is a better base runner. To be honest, I think he's a better baseball player. Not that Jackson is done getting better or anything.

Crisp has been a pretty underrated player in Oakland. He's batted .264/.326/.415 (106 OPS+) with solid defense and excellent base stealing (138 stolen bases, caught only 20 times). He has missed considerable time. This year, he's been hitting for some power. Glad to see him doing well.

 

[da55bums]

Wasn't Fowler just on your list of bad leadoff hitters? And how is Coco Crisp better with an OBP .016 points lower? Marte's OBP is also lower, but he's been the better overall hitter this year, so I'll give that one. Ian Kinsler has an OBP .011 points lower, and has a lower OPS+. He was also much worse than Jackson last year.

How does Miguel Cabrera make Jackson look better as a leadoff hitter? Can you explain that one to me?

I agree Fowler IS on my list of bad leadoff hitters...and my point that JacKKKKson isn't any better than him...agree completely.

I stated this year, so the "much worse than JacKKKson last year" comment was pointless...If you would like, I can go through last years...I only had to go through 2013 to see JacKKKson isn't a good to great leadoff hitter when so many guys could just come over and be the leadoff hitter for Detroit, average guys and put up good numbers....

All Great hitters make the hitters around them better, do you really not believe that? That would really be a shock coming from you if thats the case.

If JacKKKKson played for Houston or Miami, he would be swinging for the fences, the hits, anything to get him money, better stats or traded off the team.....his OBP would NOT be anything like it is with the best hitter in baseball hitting 2 spots behind him, FOR his entire career....he can take more pitches at the chance for a walk because his bat isn't needed to produce anything.

JacKKKKson is striking out less, not because of "getting better", it has just been repeated a 1000 times...

"Ok look, you have the best hitter in baseball 2 spots behind you....getting strikeouts doesn't help us or allow Miggy to hit you in.....take more pitches and stop swinging so much...we just need you to get on even if you Don Baylor it...just turn the shoulder in but don't get out of the way...by the way stop stealing bases unless we send you, you just are not that fast and the reason you keep getting caught"

 

[MiamiVice]

Lol... Jackson not k'ing as much isn't a result of him getting better? Jesus this guy is a retard.

 

[MiamiVice]

Fun fact... Gordon has more k's and a lower bb/k rate than jackkkson... Lol

 

[da55bums]

This is so cool, I keep thinking of the Teacher or the Parents from "Charlie Brown's Christmas".....whant..wa..whant..wa wa..whant...whant whant...wha...whant...

too funny

 

[dougplayer]

whats to funny...Royals come into Comerica park this week end and get a ass whipping.


dream time is over.....time to wake up and know that you are still the royals.
tigers looking to sweep the Royals

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Yes.. it is... Pitchers change the way they pitch... And defenses change alignments... Anyone that played baseball above high school knows that. Stat don't show everything... You can show me any stat you want... But it won't change reality... Is a free throw harder down a point with 2 seconds to go? People that lean on stats to much miss human elements like pressure, and obvious stuff like defensive shifts and pitching technique get thrown out... Having a man on third forces defenses to have to play the squeeze... It changes the way outfielders play.... Its not the same.

Yeah... I played baseball above high school and it's only harder to get a hit if you approach it that way.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Coco Crisp is a better base runner. To be honest, I think he's a better baseball player. Not that Jackson is done getting better or anything.

He's a better baserunner, so that makes him a better leadoff hitter? I think Crisp is having a better season this year and is a very underrated player, but I think he and Jackson are equals at this point, but headed in different directions.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I agree Fowler IS on my list of bad leadoff hitters...and my point that JacKKKKson isn't any better than him...agree completely.

I stated this year, so the "much worse than JacKKKson last year" comment was pointless...If you would like, I can go through last years...I only had to go through 2013 to see JacKKKson isn't a good to great leadoff hitter when so many guys could just come over and be the leadoff hitter for Detroit, average guys and put up good numbers....

All Great hitters make the hitters around them better, do you really not believe that? That would really be a shock coming from you if thats the case.

If JacKKKKson played for Houston or Miami, he would be swinging for the fences, the hits, anything to get him money, better stats or traded off the team.....his OBP would NOT be anything like it is with the best hitter in baseball hitting 2 spots behind him, FOR his entire career....he can take more pitches at the chance for a walk because his bat isn't needed to produce anything.

JacKKKKson is striking out less, not because of "getting better", it has just been repeated a 1000 times...

"Ok look, you have the best hitter in baseball 2 spots behind you....getting strikeouts doesn't help us or allow Miggy to hit you in.....take more pitches and stop swinging so much...we just need you to get on even if you Don Baylor it...just turn the shoulder in but don't get out of the way...by the way stop stealing bases unless we send you, you just are not that fast and the reason you keep getting caught"

Please, go through last season and tell me how many leadoff hitters were better than Jackson. I'd really like to see this.

Cabrera doesn't make Jackson better. Jackson has to perform himself. If anything, pitchers are going after the Jackson and Hunters that much harder to get them out so that they're not on base when Cabrera gets up, which allows them to a) limit the damage, and/or b) pitch around Cabrera.

The rest of your post can barely be described as English, so I'm not going to bother trying to decipher what you're trying to say.

 

[da55bums]

Last season all No. 1 hitters combined for a .324 OBP, which was the lowest percentage in 35 years. In fact, the three lowest OBPs since 1978 all happened in the last three seasons, as No. 1 hitters had a .328 OBP in '11 and a .329 in '10, meaning good leadoff hitters are in very short supply these days.

Read More: Reds hope Choo can be rare commodity: an effective leadoff hitter - MLB - Joe Lemire - SI.com

another point that JacKKKKson looks like a decent choice for leadoff because of lack of supply...heck Alex Gordon, Dejesus, Pagan is a leadoff hitter, that alone tells you how desperate teams are in the majors for leadoff hitters...its not just JacKKKKson...leadoff hitters across baseball currently are just not good leadoff hitters...they are the best the team has to throw in the spot currently.

One definition of quality leadoff hitters found.

1. Get on base
2. Take pitches
3. Fight pitches off (AKA “spoiling a pitch”)
4. Don't strike out
5. Put the ball in play
6. Steal bases (OK, the stat-head may not agree here, but we'll get to that later)

De Aza
DeJesus

are the top 2 according to the above definition of leadoff hitter

Trout
Jeter
Reyes
Bourn
Jackkkkson
Gordon
Kinsler
Pagan


feel free to list how, you define, the best leadoff hitter, OBP and thats it?

if thats your definition, then JacKKKKson is about 3rd to 5th there with Trout, Fowler, Choo and Gordon

excluding E Young, Bernadina and Gentry for not getting over 300 abs last year.

If its runs scored only, but close...thanks to Miggy, lol

If its putting the ball in play only, not close

If its SB percentage only, not close

If its strikeouts only, not close

 

[da55bums]

after looking it up...I still don't think Fowler is a good to great leadoff hitter, by definition, but the "other" stats you don't see very much actually shows he is better than I thought...he gets upgraded actually and JacKKKson is actually worse than Fowler.

 

[broncosmitty]

He's a better baserunner, so that makes him a better leadoff hitter? I think Crisp is having a better season this year and is a very underrated player, but I think he and Jackson are equals at this point, but headed in different directions.

Idk who the better leadoff hitter is. But AJax, IMO, is a poor baserunner. Especially for a guy with his speed and talent. Not that I've seen most of Cocos career, but from what I've seen of both, I think Id give him a slight edge in the field also. In agreement on the direction of their careers for sure. Austin continues to improve as a hitter all the time. I do know that Oakland and Detroit have two very Valueable guys at the top of their orders.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Last season all No. 1 hitters combined for a .324 OBP, which was the lowest percentage in 35 years. In fact, the three lowest OBPs since 1978 all happened in the last three seasons, as No. 1 hitters had a .328 OBP in '11 and a .329 in '10, meaning good leadoff hitters are in very short supply these days.

Read More: Reds hope Choo can be rare commodity: an effective leadoff hitter - MLB - Joe Lemire - SI.com

another point that JacKKKKson looks like a decent choice for leadoff because of lack of supply...heck Alex Gordon, Dejesus, Pagan is a leadoff hitter, that alone tells you how desperate teams are in the majors for leadoff hitters...its not just JacKKKKson...leadoff hitters across baseball currently are just not good leadoff hitters...they are the best the team has to throw in the spot currently.

One definition of quality leadoff hitters found.

1. Get on base
2. Take pitches
3. Fight pitches off (AKA “spoiling a pitch”)
4. Don't strike out
5. Put the ball in play
6. Steal bases (OK, the stat-head may not agree here, but we'll get to that later)

De Aza
DeJesus

are the top 2 according to the above definition of leadoff hitter

Trout
Jeter
Reyes
Bourn
Jackkkkson
Gordon
Kinsler
Pagan


feel free to list how, you define, the best leadoff hitter, OBP and thats it?

if thats your definition, then JacKKKKson is about 3rd to 5th there with Trout, Fowler, Choo and Gordon

excluding E Young, Bernadina and Gentry for not getting over 300 abs last year.

If its runs scored only, but close...thanks to Miggy, lol

If its putting the ball in play only, not close

If its SB percentage only, not close

If its strikeouts only, not close

That definition applies to just about any hitter in a lot of ways, doesn't it?

When I choose a leadoff hitter, I'm looking for a guy who can get on base a lot, will see a good number of pitches early in the game to give the big boppers a sense of what the pitcher is dealing, and can make things happen once he's on base, whether it be in the form of a steal or going 1st-to-3rd, 1st-to-home, etc. Everything else beyond that is gravy.

Not every team has an ideal leadoff man, and some teams have more than one.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

after looking it up...I still don't think Fowler is a good to great leadoff hitter, by definition, but the "other" stats you don't see very much actually shows he is better than I thought...he gets upgraded actually and JacKKKson is actually worse than Fowler.

If Fowler isn't then no one is. Not every team has a Shin-Soo Choo to lead off.

The fact of the matter is that you have no idea what you're talking about, let your personal biases cloud your opinion, and have an ideal standard for leadoff men that is unrealistic to expect from most who actually fill the role.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Idk who the better leadoff hitter is. But AJax, IMO, is a poor baserunner. Especially for a guy with his speed and talent. Not that I've seen most of Cocos career, but from what I've seen of both, I think Id give him a slight edge in the field also. In agreement on the direction of their careers for sure. Austin continues to improve as a hitter all the time. I do know that Oakland and Detroit have two very Valueable guys at the top of their orders.

When you refer to baserunning, are you referring only to basestealing, or baserunning as a whole? Because there are plenty of guys who steal bases but are poor baserunners, and there are plenty of guys who don't steal bases who are actually good baserunners.

I honestly haven't taken notice of Jackson's overall baserunning to have a solid opinion one way or another. I know he's a poor basestealer, but that doesn't necessarily make him a poor baserunner. Conversely, I have seen a ton of Coco Crisp over the years and he's always been a fantastic baserunner.

I wouldn't agree on defense though. Jackson takes that category, not that it's relevant to the leadoff discussion.

 

[da55bums]

If Fowler isn't then no one is. Not every team has a Shin-Soo Choo to lead off.

The fact of the matter is that you have no idea what you're talking about, let your personal biases cloud your opinion, and have an ideal standard for leadoff men that is unrealistic to expect from most who actually fill the role.

yeah, Fowler, Jackkkkson, Pagan, Dejesus will go down on the list of leadoff hitters....I guess looking over quality leadoff hitters for the last 25 years...I can't fathom why they can't make the list...and why an article would even state that proto typical good lead off hitters are at their worst in 35 years....got ya...


please, I just listed what some "experts" believe as well as myself and all you do you talk a bunch but now why don't you list your top 10 leadoff hitters ever year JacKKKKson has been in the league since Ursmarterthanme..

I said Fowler is up there, so is De Aza, Reyes, Trout, Bourn...you can see the list....where again do you place JacKKKKson? I still don't see your view....I would take all the players listed, except DeJesus, which was a very large shocker before Jackkkkson...and even Ellsbury...thats where I stand...get off the the circle talk and post your opinion of the top leadoff hitters...not just bash mine.

 

[da55bums]

That definition applies to just about any hitter in a lot of ways, doesn't it?

When I choose a leadoff hitter, I'm looking for a guy who can get on base a lot, will see a good number of pitches early in the game to give the big boppers a sense of what the pitcher is dealing, and can make things happen once he's on base, whether it be in the form of a steal or going 1st-to-3rd, 1st-to-home, etc. Everything else beyond that is gravy.

Not every team has an ideal leadoff man, and some teams have more than one.

then, according to what you stated, Jackkkkson is around 5th best in the league at best about 8th at worst, for last year.

 

[broncosmitty]

When you refer to baserunning, are you referring only to basestealing, or baserunning as a whole? Because there are plenty of guys who steal bases but are poor baserunners, and there are plenty of guys who don't steal bases who are actually good baserunners.

I honestly haven't taken notice of Jackson's overall baserunning to have a solid opinion one way or another. I know he's a poor basestealer, but that doesn't necessarily make him a poor baserunner. Conversely, I have seen a ton of Coco Crisp over the years and he's always been a fantastic baserunner.

I wouldn't agree on defense though. Jackson takes that category, not that it's relevant to the leadoff discussion.

I think AJax is a lousy baserunner. Leyland doesn't like to have his baserunners steal much. (Slow team anyway). But he's sleepy on the base paths more than you'd like to see. Even if given the green light I'm not sure he could be much of a base stealer. He takes short leads and IMO, doesn't get good jumps. It's an area he really needs to work on. Which could happen, he's improved enough at the plate to prove he puts in work. It's Jackson's arm that holds down my opinion of his overall defense. It's not bad, but not impressive.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I think AJax is a lousy baserunner. Leyland doesn't like to have his baserunners steal much. (Slow team anyway). But he's sleepy on the base paths more than you'd like to see. Even if given the green light I'm not sure he could be much of a base stealer. He takes short leads and IMO, doesn't get good jumps. It's an area he really needs to work on. Which could happen, he's improved enough at the plate to prove he puts in work. It's Jackson's arm that holds down my opinion of his overall defense. It's not bad, but not impressive.

Thanks for the insight. Reminds me of Bernie Williams, who was fast and athletic but utterly clueless on the basepaths.

Also, arm tends to be overrated drastically when rating outfielders. Other than RF, it's far less important than an outfielders range, positioning, route taking, and first step abilities. Jackson has those skills in droves.