Ray, Drew Brees Situation w/ the Saints!?

[maniax]

Plus Brees' stats would take a bit hit playing 8 games on a sloppy field instead of inside a 72 degree dome.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Man you're hard on our WRs and OL.

If only you held the same standards to our other positions.

outside of vernon who showed up in the playoffs in the passing game?

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Unless something changed in the new CBA, that's not true. If Brees signs the tender no other team can negotiate with him, but if New Orleans tags him and he doesn't sign, he can sign and negotiate with anyone.

If we pursued that course, we would sign him to an offer sheet which the Saints would have 7 days to match. If they didn't match, they would get the 30th pick this year as well as our first pick next year.

I didn't realize a player could choose not to sign an exclusive franchise tag. What happens if he chooses not to sign and no other team offers him a deal? He just sits out?

 

[imac_21]

I didn't realize a player could choose not to sign an exclusive franchise tag. What happens if he chooses not to sign and no other team offers him a deal? He just sits out?

Sorry, I didn't realize you were referring to the exclusive franchise tag. Does it still exist in the new CBA?

If it does, you're right. The Exclusive Tag means only the current team (Saints) can negotiate with him. The cost for this is higher.

The standard franchise tag works the same as a restricted FA tender. The Saints would tender him with the franchise salary (average of the top 5 over the last 5 years I believe now). At this point any team (as of March 13) can negotiate with him. If they agree to a contract, he signs an offer sheet and the Saints have 7 days to match it exactly (no changes no matter how minor). If they match, the keep him, if they don't match they get 2 first round picks.

Once the franchise tender is signed by the player he has a 1 year guaranteed contract and can no longer negotiate with other teams (this goes for RFA as well).

The other catch with all tenders is that the team issuing the tender must always have enough cap room to accommodate the cost of the one-year contract under the cap. This is because Brees could sign the tender at any point and the Saints must be under the cap. So if the QB tag was, for example, 16M and the Saints tagged him. If NO signed someone that left them 15.9M in cap room Brees instantly becomes an unrestricted FA.

The other option when he's tagged is he can agree to a contract with another team, but rather than signing an offer sheet, the new team works out a trade with the old team and he then signs the contract (think when we let Lloyd go to the Rams)

 

[Hangman]

Interesting. What are the earmarks of building up a "dynasty" exactly?

This is just a personal belief, but having seen a few dynasty's created I have noticed a few similarities about them.

One side of the ball, usually the defense, is dominate. Every position has at least 2 impact players. Niners on defense have that one down. They had it in the early 80s too when they relied on Defense more and offense less. (Until they got Rice)

The other side of the ball has solid players throughout, but is in need of one or 2 to become upper tier (top 10 in the league.) 9ers need a C, RG, and another receiving threat and that will shore up the offense.

Special Teams play can win games and will not cost games. For the patriots they had Vinatieri. He won the patriots 2 super bowls with his clutch kicking. 9ers are solid in this area. Can't think of any real need for improvement here.

Good coaching staff. They can mask areas of weakness and use the teams strengths to win games. Also, develop good techniques in players so they improve. Gets players to limit mistakes on and off the field.

Using the cap wisely. Don't go after the super star at big bucks. Get more value by signing 2-3 solid players with that money instead. Patriots used to be masters at this until they decided to go all out on offense and let the defense go. The niners did as well from 91-93.

Evaluate talent. Walsh could spot talent that was deep in the draft. This last year's draft was the closest I have seen to a Walsh coached team draft. Finding value in every round. Then finding other teams cast offs that fit their scheme. Must fit what the team does or they are bad signings and can ruin what the team is trying to do.

Be known as an up and coming team who rewards players. Other teams players see this and want to join in on the success. Look at all the free agents that wanted to be a Jet and an Eagle last season. The only problem was that both teams broke the rule about using the cap wisely and had to cut some solid players and their lack made huge holes the teams could not mask.

Finally have a good fan base. Teams have had most of these down, but had poor fan base and the players leave to bigger markets in FA. No one wants to play on a team that has half the games blacked out.


Again, this is just my opinion, but from what I have seen the niners have the making of a dynasty or at the least a team that makes the playoffs year after year like the Ravens.

 

[clyde_carbon]

outside of vernon who showed up in the playoffs in the passing game?

Aside from the last 5 minutes of the Saints game, pretty much everyone struggled on offense. Even Alex.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Btw the exclusive franchise tag still exists in the new CBA. It's the high of either the non-exclusive franchise tag number (the 120% increase) or the the average of the top-5 salaries at the respective position.

 

[clyde_carbon]

One side of the ball, usually the defense, is dominate. Every position has at least 2 impact players. Niners on defense have that one down. They had it in the early 80s too when they relied on Defense more and offense less. (Until they got Rice)

Dominant* ... sorry but that annoys me.

The Pats haven't had a dominant defense in a while. The Colts, if you wanna consider them a dynasty, didn't have a dominant defense. The 49ers' dynasty was known for their offense.

The other side of the ball has solid players throughout, but is in need of one or 2 to become upper tier (top 10 in the league.) 9ers need a C, RG, and another receiving threat and that will shore up the offense.

You're describing a lot of teams. Us, the Packers, the Saints, the Giants, the Pats, the Steelers, the Cowboys, the Ravens. No all of these team are or on the verge of being dynasties.

Special Teams play can win games and will not cost games. For the patriots they had Vinatieri. He won the patriots 2 super bowls with his clutch kicking. 9ers are solid in this area. Can't think of any real need for improvement here.

Ok...so because we have a good special teams we shouldn't consider Brees?

Good coaching staff. They can mask areas of weakness and use the teams strengths to win games. Also, develop good techniques in players so they improve. Gets players to limit mistakes on and off the field.

Bad argument. A dynasty = a good coaching staff. A good coaching staff doesn't necessarily = a dynasty.

Using the cap wisely. Don't go after the super star at big bucks. Get more value by signing 2-3 solid players with that money instead. Patriots used to be masters at this until they decided to go all out on offense and let the defense go. The niners did as well from 91-93.

Evaluate talent. Walsh could spot talent that was deep in the draft. This last year's draft was the closest I have seen to a Walsh coached team draft. Finding value in every round. Then finding other teams cast offs that fit their scheme. Must fit what the team does or they are bad signings and can ruin what the team is trying to do.

How do the 49ers evaluate talent and structures contracts better than any other top franchise in the NFL?

Be known as an up and coming team who rewards players. Other teams players see this and want to join in on the success. Look at all the free agents that wanted to be a Jet and an Eagle last season. The only problem was that both teams broke the rule about using the cap wisely and had to cut some solid players and their lack made huge holes the teams could not mask.

Finally have a good fan base. Teams have had most of these down, but had poor fan base and the players leave to bigger markets in FA. No one wants to play on a team that has half the games blacked out.


Again, this is just my opinion, but from what I have seen the niners have the making of a dynasty or at the least a team that makes the playoffs year after year like the Ravens.

I don't understand your argument at all. You're basically just saying we're a good overall team. Why should that stop us from looking for a franchise QB? Even if Brees is just gonna be with us for 4 or 5 years, we can still look for a successor while he's here.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

outside of vernon who showed up in the playoffs in the passing game?

Well, Frank Gore nearly equaled his season receiving stats in the playoffs.

But an equally pertinent question: how many catchable balls did Smith throw to his wide receivers? Especially in the Giants game?

 

[Flyingiguana]

Aside from the last 5 minutes of the Saints game, pretty much everyone struggled on offense. Even Alex.

he hit vernon early in the giants game until the giants adjusted their coverage and the conditions worsened. he outplayed eli

 

[Flyingiguana]

Well, Frank Gore nearly equaled his season receiving stats in the playoffs.

But an equally pertinent question: how many catchable balls did Smith throw to his wide receivers? Especially in the Giants game?

we got away from what was working in the run game by the time the 2nd half rolled around. gore should have been a bigger part of the offense. instead we start doing a bunch of dumb outside runs and getting cute with defensive players.

crabtree couldn't get seperation. williams couldn't either outside of earlier in the game. me and some others were wondering if crabtree was even out there during the game. it's bad when the giants secondary can shut down wr's in man coverage

 

[Hangman]

Dominant* ... sorry but that annoys me.

The Pats haven't had a dominant defense in a while. The Colts, if you wanna consider them a dynasty, didn't have a dominant defense. The 49ers' dynasty was known for their offense.

Pats haven't won a super bowl since they went all out offense. Colts only won 1 super bowl, not a dynasty. 49ers in the early to mid 80s were known for their defense. In fact they had a great defense until 91.

You're describing a lot of teams. Us, the Packers, the Saints, the Giants, the Pats, the Steelers, the Cowboys, the Ravens. No all of these team are or on the verge of being dynasties.

Am I? Packers, Pats, and Cowboys need lots of help on one side of the ball. Namely their Defense. But the Giants and Steelers might be considered a dynasty if they some how win another super bowl. Each would have 3 in a 5-6 year span.

Ok...so because we have a good special teams we shouldn't consider Brees?

This statement you just made has nothing to do with anything? I dont think you understand that a team needs all of what I listed, not just 1 or 2.

Bad argument. A dynasty = a good coaching staff. A good coaching staff doesn't necessarily = a dynasty.

Again, its all of the items I listed. Not just one thing. I have never seen a dynasty with a shit coaching staff. In fact they have to deal with other teams poaching coordinators.

How do the 49ers evaluate talent and structures contracts better than any other top franchise in the NFL?

Look at how they handled FA this past off season. Signed Rodgers, Edwards, and Goldson. Look at who they drafted, in which round and then look how they made an impact this season. Look at the players that were let go. Many thought the players that were let go could not be replaced. And they were more than replaced, they were upgraded.


I don't understand your argument at all. You're basically just saying we're a good overall team. Why should that stop us from looking for a franchise QB? Even if Brees is just gonna be with us for 4 or 5 years, we can still look for a successor while he's here.

I am not saying don't look for a franchise QB. I am saying don't sacrifice all the cap space, draft picks, current players that will have to be cut, and the ability to sign 2-3 solid FAs as well for him. A big signing like that cripples a team for several years.

And I am saying the niners are a good overall team, but maybe I left something out. The niners are a good and young overall team.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

we got away from what was working in the run game by the time the 2nd half rolled around. gore should have been a bigger part of the offense. instead we start doing a bunch of dumb outside runs and getting cute with defensive players.

crabtree couldn't get seperation. williams couldn't either outside of earlier in the game. me and some others were wondering if crabtree was even out there during the game. it's bad when the giants secondary can shut down wr's in man coverage

All of which amounts to you avoiding the question. When the NFC Championship game is on the line, a QB might have to squeeze a ball into a tight space. Did Smith do that? Did he hit his open receivers when he had the chance, or give them an opportunity to make a play on a ball?

I agree the playcalling was less than stellar. But when Alex had chances, he didn't take advantage of them.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

he hit vernon early in the giants game until the giants adjusted their coverage and the conditions worsened. he outplayed eli

Eli didn't have a very good game, and but for Goldson taking out our own players, might have had a terrible game. But that's a "woulda, shoulda, coulda" sort of approach. Eli made the plays he needed to when he needed to make them. He missed plenty of opportunities, but he made more of his opportunities than Smith did.

In the go-ahead drive following Williams' muff, Manning hit two throws that Smith didn't even bother to attempt in this game. That's the difference between those two guys. Smith had those chances. He chose not to take them and his team lost. It's not his fault they lost necessarily, but he certainly could have won it for them.

 

[Flyingiguana]

what chances? the giants wr's got open ours didn't. once the giants covered vernon it was over with our passing game because nobody else can get the job done.

with the poor field conditions we should have been riding gore, that could have opened up things in the passing game. not to mention we wouldn't get stuck with so many 3rd and longs.

brees forcing the ball to a covered crabtree would be asking for trouble. at least guys like graham and colston can use their body to shield a defender. crabtree doesn't have the size, speed or route running ability.

 

[maniax]

what chances? the giants wr's got open ours didn't. once the giants covered vernon it was over with our passing game because nobody else can get the job done.

with the poor field conditions we should have been riding gore, that could have opened up things in the passing game. not to mention we wouldn't get stuck with so many 3rd and longs.

brees forcing the ball to a covered crabtree would be asking for trouble. at least guys like graham and colston can use their body to shield a defender. crabtree doesn't have the size, speed or route running ability.

You are forgetting that if the Saints WRs are covered, then Brees still has the option of throwing it to Sproles underneath or in the flats. Probably the most dangerous RB in the NFL if he catches the ball with some space to run.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

Yes, the niners need a great QB at some point, but to give up on Smith when he showed so much improvement and Kaepernick and Tolzien, two young promising QBs being coached up, the QB situation might just solve itself.

But we would be hoping one of them develop into a guy as good as Brees or close to it. So why not just sign him and avoid the guessing game?? I mean, sure he costs a lot of money, but don't you think if all of our guys start panning out it's gonna cost money to keep them around??

 

[Crimsoncrew]

what chances? the giants wr's got open ours didn't. once the giants covered vernon it was over with our passing game because nobody else can get the job done.

with the poor field conditions we should have been riding gore, that could have opened up things in the passing game. not to mention we wouldn't get stuck with so many 3rd and longs.

brees forcing the ball to a covered crabtree would be asking for trouble. at least guys like graham and colston can use their body to shield a defender. crabtree doesn't have the size, speed or route running ability.

The Giants' receivers got "Manning open." They didn't often get "Smith open." Manning repeatedly made throws that Smith didn't even attempt, to guys Smith wouldn't consider open. Smith completed one ball into a tight window all game that I noticed: a failed 3rd down conversion attempt to Davis that came up a yard short. Other than that, I can't recall him even trying to throw to a player with a defender within a yard. Manning hit Cruz and Nicks repeatedly when they were as tightly covered as our receivers were for most of the game.

 

[Flyingiguana]

crabtree couldn't even get seperation from a linebacker.

why spend money on brees when we're gonna have him throw to the clowns we have now? it's a complete waste of brees' ability. i don't think we have the cap space to bring in brees and pick up the wr's needed to make our offense click.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

crabtree couldn't even get seperation from a linebacker.

why spend money on brees when we're gonna have him throw to the clowns we have now? it's a complete waste of brees' ability. i don't think we have the cap space to bring in brees and pick up the wr's needed to make our offense click.

Because Brees makes his supporting cast better. In his first year with the Saints, Brees threw for 4,418 yards, 26 TDs, and 11 INTs. His amazing supporting cast? Marques Colston (rookie), Reggie Bush (rookie), Devery Henderson, Joe Horn (last decent season), and Terrance Copper. That's a decent supporting cast. It's certainly nothing special. And the three guys who have left NO fell off when they did so. Joe Horn went to Atlanta the next year and disappeared (430 fewer yards and 3 fewer TDs). That year was Copper's only decent one in his career. Bush had his worst season as a receiver this year, his first without Brees.

So with two rookies, a has-been, a one-dimensional deep threat, and a never-was, Brees put together a pro-bowl season. He's a better player now. If we give him a second-round WR and a mid-level FA, to go with our existing guys and Morgan, he'll have more than enough tools to be effective. He won't break the passing record, but we won't need him to.