Random Thoughts 2.0

[idseer]

McCann is in my doghouse for the moment as that 10th inning strikeout yesterday pissed me off something fierce. That kind of sh*t could have blown us the gimme run/win. If we figure out our other holes at pitcher and RF, Grandal's signing is less of a deal and just gives us good flexibility since apparently he plays some first base too (and did just fine out there). But don't come in here selling me that he's some kind of stud. He's not. I would typically refer to his deal as a rent-a-bat...but f*ck if I'll call him that. Rent-a-frame I guess.

i think i have a solution to our problem in right. GRANDEL!

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

Crazy to say that with this shortened 2020 campaign flying by, we're actually into the final month of the season. And we enter it solely in 1st place. Haven't been alone in 1st since April 2nd........... of 2018!

Apparently Cleavinger wanted to be traded to the Sox, altho I'm sure he's happily accepting as a consolation prize being dealt to a rising team in one of the world's best climates.

Report: Mike Clevinger Wanted To Get Traded To The White Sox

Make no mistake about it, I would have loved to nab Cleavinger or Lynn for that matter, but not at the prices the Indians and Rangers reportedly were asking for their respective pitchers.

 

[Jiddy]

Crazy to say that with this shortened 2020 campaign flying by, we're actually into the final month of the season. And we enter it solely in 1st place. Haven't been alone in 1st since April 2nd........... of 2018!

Apparently Cleavinger wanted to be traded to the Sox, altho I'm sure he's happily accepting as a consolation prize being dealt to a rising team in one of the world's best climates.

Report: Mike Clevinger Wanted To Get Traded To The White Sox

Make no mistake about it, I would have loved to nab Cleavinger or Lynn for that matter, but not at the prices the Indians and Rangers reportedly were asking for their respective pitchers.

Tim Anderson taking one from the Corradelle Patterson playbook.

 

[richig07]

McCann is in my doghouse for the moment as that 10th inning strikeout yesterday pissed me off something fierce. That kind of sh*t could have blown us the gimme run/win. If we figure out our other holes at pitcher and RF, Grandal's signing is less of a deal and just gives us good flexibility since apparently he plays some first base too (and did just fine out there). But don't come in here selling me that he's some kind of stud. He's not. I would typically refer to his deal as a rent-a-bat...but f*ck if I'll call him that. Rent-a-frame I guess.

Except he's an elite offensive and defensive catcher by every single relevant metric across 900+ major league games. So... you're just wrong. And it isn't even debatable. It's just a fact.

Looking at his career numbers. How isn't he a stud? There's only one other catcher who compares to him over the past few years. I showed you the graphic.

His 2020 numbers here are barely below his career numbers... and up until a few slow days recently? They had succeeded those in multiple areas. A few good days in a row (like last week) and they go back above that?

Yes, we will do this again, until you get it.

Like, what leg does your argument even stand on? Your perception of how the announcers talk about him? How you "feel" when he comes to the plate? LMAO. Use facts and just explain your position. It's all I have ever asked.

I would like you to do that once within this conversation. Use facts and not Jiddyisms.

I honestly think it's just an error occurring in your brain that we can work past. You realize you don't compare catcher offensive numbers to corner OF'ers and IF'ers, right? You realize, that is incorrect, right? You compare players to their counterparts. That is how player value works.

Being a "good" major league hitter = a monster hitting catcher

It's that simple.

Maybe it's because he walks a lot? And "Jiddy no hear big boom! Jiddy don't notice!"... Is that a problem? Not enough "big boom" for Jiddy?

 

[richig07]

I was a big fan of signing Grandal and even with a slow start to the season - Grandal improves this team. However, - straight up - if I had the choice between Grandal or McCann as the catcher based on 2020 performance - I would - no question - take McCann.

Well...

There's a reason you don't base decisions on a 17 game sample size. Which is what McCann has played. McCann has a 550+ game sample size over his career where he has an OBP below .300 and a SLG% below .400.

Last year, after we made a full blown commitment to McCann. He proceeded to torpedo back into that player.

McCann also pales in comparison to Grandal defensively and catcher is pretty much the only "defense first" position. Whether it's calling a game, pitch framing, etc. He's just better. Giolito can glow about his "BFF" all he wants, but McCann struggles in areas that aren't always noticeable to the naked eye.

When you play part time - you also always have fresh legs as a catcher and you usually get starts on the strong side of your platoon split. Again, McCann fell HARD back to Earth when we made him "THE GUY" last year.

2nd catchers posting big offensive numbers in a backup role and then spiraling when pressed into full-time duty is rather common. I remember 2018 where Austin Romine was literally hitting .390 with a big OBP/SLG until Gary Sanchez got hurt around the midway point.

Similar claims with Romine were made. Stating that he should take over for the struggling Gary Sanchez that season. Romine wound up hitting .244/.295/.417 over 77 games after all was said and done. Just a total crash.


For @Jiddy too. Grandal is 3rd in OPS, HR's, OBP, and RBI's among catchers. Is 1st in BB's elite in pretty much every category, FWIW. This with him having a "slow start".

MLB Stats | Baseball Stats

 

[Jiddy]

"Among catchers"

Nobody gives a sh*t...Rank him among 2-4 hitters in the league. That's the real issue. He isn't that quality of a player. If he bats 5-9 (6-9 imo, but I can live with 5 since their golden FA signing must be placed on a pedestal).

He's not that good of a player to support being in those spots. ESPECIALLY not on this team with the bats we have. Until that happens, he's a detriment. Period.

 

[Jiddy]

"Among catchers"

Nobody gives a sh*t...Rank him among 2-4 hitters in the league. That's the real issue. He isn't that quality of a player. If he bats 5-9 (6-9 imo, but I can live with 5 since their golden FA signing must be placed on a pedestal).

He's not that good of a player to support being in those spots. ESPECIALLY not on this team with the bats we have. Until that happens, he's a detriment. Period.

Also, McCann's better. So he still isn't the best catcher on our team as far as I'm concerned...So sh*t on your league.

 

[Mingo]

@richig07 Thanks for the lecture, but I think I will pass on your full class.

I made it clear in my remarks - I was basing the judgement on who has brought the most to the White Sox this season.

This does not mean - I hate Grandal or his contributions to the team this year. Grandal has twice the ABs this year that McCann has - pretty much because of his contract status. While Grandal is an acknowledged pitch framer (especially low pitches) he is a passed ball machine because he sets up for the pitch framing and a ball in the dirt is much harder to handle when you are set up that way at the plate. McCann, however, was pitch framing Giolito's rising fastball last year and this year better than any catcher in the league frames the high fast ball.

I will note - Renteria started the season off with Grandal catching Giolito (with a poor Giolito start) and has now apparently returned to McCann as Giolito's catcher. McCann leads Grandal in every hitting metric - though he has half the ABs this year.

McCann has made himself a better catcher and a better hitter since coming to the Sox. McCann has even learned from Grandal on pitch framing the low ball pitch (without the passed balls).

One thing that seems to have really died down - is Grandal spouting off about how he knows how to get pitchers to pitch better by adopting his plans. I said at the time Cooper might not like that - and the pitchers might not like that.

I'm glad to have both catchers - that is the true genius of this move - and it is very nice that Grandal is a switch hitter and has a pretty selective approach at the plate and that McCann's opportunities to play can be matched against the pitching he might face - maximizes his value. All those things are true, but I will go ahead and believe my eyes when I tell you McCann has provided more value this year than Grandal has to this point.

 

[idseer]

omg is richi still having a grandal love affair? nothing like an obsession with mediocrity.

 

[Jiddy]

Fine...I'll speak richi's language since he bothered me to take a few seconds to gloss over Grandal's *shudders*...stats...

WAR measures a player's value in all facets of the game by deciphering how many more wins he's worth than a replacement-level player at his same position (e.g., a Minor League replacement or a readily available fill-in free agent).

YASMANI GRANDAL -0.1

Negative...

 

[Jiddy]

I mean...Not that the statistical results for his production as a White Sox player weren't obvious from just watching the games. But yeah...He's f*cking playing like dog sh*t at the plate. Highest contract ever is how we judge him. That's the key. He fails that measure. By a long shot. And how am I supposed to think a career .240 hitter is all of a sudden going to start swatting at a .300+ clip to make up for his sh*t start? He's not. It's done. We got zonked in year one from this dude "statistically."

And we've gone over the pitch framing bs...I stand by, and will continue to stand by, that whatever "pitch framing" Yasmani Grandal brings to the table, as an elite pitch framer, vs what an average catcher would do framing is AT BEST worth 1 game on a season W/L. And I highly doubt it's even that significant. It's not "Oh, all of a sudden" we have good framing vs sh*t framing. No, it's simply the variance in between average and elite...and it's not that big of a deal. Certainly not enough to put him in the "OMG, I saw my kid pretending to be Yasmani Grandal in the backyard yesterday" territory. (That never happens...Trust me. However, I'd bet there's a few mini Luis Roberts out there right now. How's that for a small sample size?)

Soooo...If he is meh at the plate while CONTINUALLY being put in the prime positions in our lineup, is outplayed by his backup, and is holding our highest FA contract in history...How can anyone possibly be happy about this?

*shrugs* Maybe if every one of our young studs hits .300 and 30+ dongs Renteria will finally get the memo to get him out of the top of the order...But I won't hold my breath.

 

[idseer]

I mean...Not that the statistical results for his production as a White Sox player weren't obvious from just watching the games. But yeah...He's f*cking playing like dog sh*t at the plate. Highest contract ever is how we judge him. That's the key. He fails that measure. By a long shot. And how am I supposed to think a career .240 hitter is all of a sudden going to start swatting at a .300+ clip to make up for his sh*t start? He's not. It's done. We got zonked in year one from this dude "statistically."

And we've gone over the pitch framing bs...I stand by, and will continue to stand by, that whatever "pitch framing" Yasmani Grandal brings to the table, as an elite pitch framer, vs what an average catcher would do framing is AT BEST worth 1 game on a season W/L. And I highly doubt it's even that significant. It's not "Oh, all of a sudden" we have good framing vs sh*t framing. No, it's simply the variance in between average and elite...and it's not that big of a deal. Certainly not enough to put him in the "OMG, I saw my kid pretending to be Yasmani Grandal in the backyard yesterday" territory. (That never happens...Trust me. However, I'd bet there's a few mini Luis Roberts out there right now. How's that for a small sample size?)

Soooo...If he is meh at the plate while CONTINUALLY being put in the prime positions in our lineup, is outplayed by his backup, and is holding our highest FA contract in history...How can anyone possibly be happy about this?

*shrugs* Maybe if every one of our young studs hits .300 and 30+ dongs Renteria will finally get the memo to get him out of the top of the order...But I won't hold my breath.

it's called the adam dunn factor. play him because we pay him .... no matter how bad he might be.

 

[Jiddy]

it's called the adam dunn factor. play him because we pay him .... no matter how bad he might be.

And yet richi is selling us the "tallest midget" snake oil because he's better than most catchers. Like, how many catchers bat in the 1-4 positions in the league consistently? 3? Maybe 4? Yasmani Grandal has evolved beyond the position with no shadow of a doubt that he has to get that extra at-bat and be a first inning every game guy? Yeah...uh...No. I could actually understand if we were throwing a bunch of sh*t on a stick players out there every day...but we have legitimately good players this guy is taking at bats from. F*ck that.

 

[Jiddy]

To recap:

None of you would trade any of Anderson/Moncada/Eloy/Jimenez/Abreu/Robert straight up for Grandal. NONE OF YOU. And yet, you guys are seriously on a train of thought that on an everyday basis 3...3!!!! of them should bat below him? F*ck outta here. I don't buy that for a second.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

Did I just hop in a Delorean? Are we back to the offseason? Quick, where's Marty?

 

[Jiddy]

Did I just hop in a Delorean? Are we back to the offseason? Quick, where's Marty?

In the offseason it was funny because I was getting a chuckle that some schlub like Grandal was our highest FA contract ever-because, as you know, I expected little out of the team this year anyway and figured it would work itself out eventually. It's not funny anymore because we're winning and our team/manager refuse to accept what Grandal is and use him like he's much better than what reality has shown us. That kind of thing will derail you when the small stuff starts mattering while you're trying to win playoff games/position/championships. We can talk about pitch framing giving an inch. I'm talking about putting a lesser player higher in the order taking a mile. Winners ride their horses. Grandal is not a horse. And he ESPECIALLY isn't a horse because he ranks higher than Pedro Severino on some sabermetric chart.


My apologies to the Severino family.

 

[idseer]

In the offseason it was funny because I was getting a chuckle that some schlub like Grandal was our highest FA contract ever-because, as you know, I expected little out of the team this year anyway and figured it would work itself out eventually. It's not funny anymore because we're winning and our team/manager refuse to accept what Grandal is and use him like he's much better than what reality has shown us. That kind of thing will derail you when the small stuff starts mattering while you're trying to win playoff games/position/championships. We can talk about pitch framing giving an inch. I'm talking about putting a lesser player higher in the order taking a mile. Winners ride their horses. Grandal is not a horse. And he ESPECIALLY isn't a horse because he ranks higher than Pedro Severino on some sabermetric chart.


My apologies to the Severino family.

actually ...... i can make one excuse for him high in the batting order (not one i'd follow but ...). spreading out the big bats! so no matter what the situation, you have a big threat in any given inning. i see some logic in not having grandal, madrigal, mendick, mazara all batting back to back. actually i can see some logic in not having mazara bat at all.

 

[Jiddy]

actually ...... i can make one excuse for him high in the batting order (not one i'd follow but ...). spreading out the big bats! so no matter what the situation, you have a big threat in any given inning. i see some logic in not having grandal, madrigal, mendick, mazara all batting back to back. actually i can see some logic in not having mazara bat at all.

I look at it like higher in order = more at bats in a game/season. If you're higher, it means the team wants you up there 50+ more times in a season than the next guy. I DO NOT want Yasmani Grandal up there 50 more times than those other guys I listed a few posts ago. I'd much rather have Grandal/Madrigal and their OBP numbers leading us back into the top of the order from the bottom with the majority of at-bats going to our studs.

 

[idseer]

I look at it like higher in order = more at bats in a game/season. If you're higher, it means the team wants you up there 50+ more times in a season than the next guy. I DO NOT want Yasmani Grandal up there 50 more times than those other guys I listed a few posts ago. I'd much rather have Grandal/Madrigal and their OBP numbers leading us back into the top of the order from the bottom with the majority of at-bats going to our studs.

not disagreeing with you.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

Yikes.....imagine what this board would be like if we lost 3 or 4 in a row.