Random NFL talk

[PDay8810]

so that makes 26 years now?

28 this February Bob

 

[fastforward]

Good trade for the Commies dang

Sound business for the Saints. Small overpay by the Commanders.

 

[Tainthappening]

For Halloween I usually only let kids take 1 piece of candy when they are trick or treating, but a kid showed up this year at my door dressed as Jordan Love,.. so I let him PICK 6

Love had his 2nd pick 6 of season on Sunday... family member sent me this yesterday and I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Lattimore's dead cap hit next season is $34m to the Saints.

BEFORE this dead cap hit, the Saints were already going to be over $70M OVER the cap next season. This just makes it worse. So now they dont have 1 good player, take an even bigger dead cap hit and all they got back for it was a 3rd and a 4th rounder.

Can someone explain the Lattiomore trade from the Saints perspective? I get the rebuild idea but with a bad cap situation why trade your best player and take on a big cap hit for such little return?

 

[shopson67]

I was hoping this was BS when I heard it a couple days ago....

Fuck!!!!

The only news I see about Rivers is that he just had another kid?

 

[shopson67]

28 this February Bob

1996 Super Bowl, so actually 29 in Feb 2025?

 

[shopson67]

Can someone explain the Lattiomore trade from the Saints perspective? I get the rebuild idea but with a bad cap situation why trade your best player and take on a big cap hit for such little return?

It is odd, but also the reason they got decent picks in return. I guess they're willing to take the big hit "now" (next year) to knock off the additional years.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

It is odd, but also the reason they got decent picks in return. I guess they're willing to take the big hit "now" (next year) to knock off the additional years.

A 3rd and 4th for a player of this caliber at a high value position does not make a lot of sense unless you are trying to clear cap space, which they obviously needed to do. Now they have a bigger cap issue, still struggling to understand why they would do this.

 

[shopson67]

A 3rd and 4th for a player of this caliber at a high value position does not make a lot of sense unless you are trying to clear cap space, which they obviously needed to do. Now they have a bigger cap issue, still struggling to understand why they would do this.

The Saints have rarely concerned themselves with the cap. They just restructure and kick the can down the road. By the time the shite actually hits the fan, the GM will probably be gone.

 

[PDay8810]

1996 Super Bowl, so actually 29 in Feb 2025?

I see..your question was a rhetorical question.

 

[fastforward]

Can someone explain the Lattiomore trade from the Saints perspective? I get the rebuild idea but with a bad cap situation why trade your best player and take on a big cap hit for such little return?

1) The Saints are NOT in a terrible cap situation.
The Saints have multiple players whose contracts have high salaries, ($8M+), for 2025. Teams can alter these contracts to pay the player league minimum and count the rest as a signing bonus. Potentially only 1 fifth of that bonus will count towards the cap in 2025. They can get under the 2025 cap without cutting anyone. That's not to say they'll keep everyone.

2) The trade is cap neutral.
By my calculations the total dead cap is $31,661,900. Spotrac has the figure $100 higher. I'm willing to concede their figure. The dead cap for 2025 was $13.40634M with a total of $18.2545M due to be accounted for in future years. By trading Lattimore before Jun 1 2025 the Saints accelerate that $18.2545M into the 2025 cap calculations. However, Lattimore was due $18M in salary and pre-Draft roster bonuses next season and his new team is now responsible for that. The net effect is that the Saints will lose $250K in 2025 cap space, which is negligible.

3) It's the contract not the player.
That's what determines the trade value. It's compared to what else you could do with the resources in free agency. For example a $10M player with a $15M contract should have negative trade value even though he improves the team. With Lattimore there are 3 components.
3a) He is worth more than $15M this season. The Commanders are buying half a season of that. I'd estimate that to be worth about 83 points on the old Draft chart.
3b) The Saints are effectively paying $7M towards the Commanders half of the season. The compensation for that is worth about 60 points.
3c) His contract is for the next 2 seasons is $18M and $18.5M. He wouldn't be worth much more than that as a FA. The trade value for that non-guaranteed contract might be worth 42 points. If the Saints waited until March to trade him that's all they'd get.

4) Draft pick timing values.
The Commanders are buying now and paying later...and there's a premium for that. If you wanted a 2025 pick during the 2025 Draft and you were paying with 2026 Draft picks you'd likely be paying 100 future points to get 71 current year points. We're half way through the season so 100 points for the 2025 Draft might only get you 85-90 points of 2024 player.

4) Analysis.
The Saints are recouping 3a) and 3b) that would otherwise be wasted in a lost season. I think the Commanders are overpaying by about 30-35 Draft chart points, (ignoring buy now pay later considerations), which is a only a high 5th round pick. Current and future values are highly subjective so I count be 100 points out on either way when it all plays out. It's a fair trade. I just like it slightly more for the Saints.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

1) The Saints are NOT in a terrible cap situation.
The Saints have multiple players whose contracts have high salaries, ($8M+), for 2025. Teams can alter these contracts to pay the player league minimum and count the rest as a signing bonus. Potentially only 1 fifth of that bonus will count towards the cap in 2025. They can get under the 2025 cap without cutting anyone. That's not to say they'll keep everyone.

2) The trade is cap neutral.
By my calculations the total dead cap is $31,661,900. Spotrac has the figure $100 higher. I'm willing to concede their figure. The dead cap for 2025 was $13.40634M with a total of $18.2545M due to be accounted for in future years. By trading Lattimore before Jun 1 2025 the Saints accelerate that $18.2545M into the 2025 cap calculations. However, Lattimore was due $18M in salary and pre-Draft roster bonuses next season and his new team is now responsible for that. The net effect is that the Saints will lose $250K in 2025 cap space, which is negligible.

3) It's the contract not the player.
That's what determines the trade value. It's compared to what else you could do with the resources in free agency. For example a $10M player with a $15M contract should have negative trade value even though he improves the team. With Lattimore there are 3 components.
3a) He is worth more than $15M this season. The Commanders are buying half a season of that. I'd estimate that to be worth about 83 points on the old Draft chart.
3b) The Saints are effectively paying $7M towards the Commanders half of the season. The compensation for that is worth about 60 points.
3c) His contract is for the next 2 seasons is $18M and $18.5M. He wouldn't be worth much more than that as a FA. The trade value for that non-guaranteed contract might be worth 42 points. If the Saints waited until March to trade him that's all they'd get.

4) Draft pick timing values.
The Commanders are buying now and paying later...and there's a premium for that. If you wanted a 2025 pick during the 2025 Draft and you were paying with 2026 Draft picks you'd likely be paying 100 future points to get 71 current year points. We're half way through the season so 100 points for the 2025 Draft might only get you 85-90 points of 2024 player.

4) Analysis.
The Saints are recouping 3a) and 3b) that would otherwise be wasted in a lost season. I think the Commanders are overpaying by about 30-35 Draft chart points, (ignoring buy now pay later considerations), which is a only a high 5th round pick. Current and future values are highly subjective so I count be 100 points out on either way when it all plays out. It's a fair trade. I just like it slightly more for the Saints.

Thanks for the cap clarification. I still like it better from Washington's perspective. When Dallas is paying Cee Dee Lamb $34M a year I have no problem paying $18M to a guy who can neutralize him. That's not a lot of money for a player of this caliber at a premium position, I do not agree that he would not get more than that on the open market.

Doubtful the 3rd and forth will net players that will have the same impact of a shutdown corner and this was the team's biggest weakness.

So if it was a wash cap wise for the Saints they just traded a marquee player at a critical position for 2 Day 3 picks in a weak draft. I don't see any benefit to taking on a $31M dead cap hit

 

[fastforward]

Thanks for the cap clarification. I still like it better from Washington's perspective. When Dallas is paying Cee Dee Lamb $34M a year I have no problem paying $18M to a guy who can neutralize him. That's not a lot of money for a player of this caliber at a premium position, I do not agree that he would not get more than that on the open market.

Doubtful the 3rd and forth will net players that will have the same impact of a shutdown corner and this was the team's biggest weakness.

So if it was a wash cap wise for the Saints they just traded a marquee player at a critical position for 2 Day 3 picks in a weak draft. I don't see any benefit to taking on a $31M dead cap hit

Well the $31M dead cap hit was unavoidable. It's whether they accounted for it all in 2025 or kept him and accounted for it over up to 4 years. $13M of dead cap was unavoidable in 2025. If they traded him in March 2025 it would still have accelerated all of the remaining $18M+ into the 2025 cap and the compensation would have been much lower.

Lamb isn't really being paid $34M per year. That's the value of his extension. He's going to be paid $122M over 4 years from 2024 to 2027. It's an average of $30.5M. It's a similar story for Love in Green Bay. Love was due $14M in 2024 and realistically he either wasn't going to play for that or wasn't going to re-sign if the Packers didn't budge.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Well the $31M dead cap hit was unavoidable. It's whether they accounted for it all in 2025 or kept him and accounted for it over up to 4 years. $13M of dead cap was unavoidable in 2025. If they traded him in March 2025 it would still have accelerated all of the remaining $18M+ into the 2025 cap and the compensation would have been much lower.

Lamb isn't really being paid $34M per year. That's the value of his extension. He's going to be paid $122M over 4 years from 2024 to 2027. It's an average of $30.5M. It's a similar story for Love in Green Bay. Love was due $14M in 2024 and realistically he either wasn't going to play for that or wasn't going to re-sign if the Packers didn't budge.

I know how contracts work, Lamb's deal averages over $30M per where Lattimore is at $18M. The Saints dead cap hit was not unavoidable. It could have been avoided had they simply kept one of the best corners in the league, their best player by a wide margin.

 

[fastforward]

I know how contracts work, Lamb's deal averages over $30M per where Lattimore is at $18M. The Saints dead cap hit was not unavoidable. It could have been avoided had they simply kept one of the best corners in the league, their best player by a wide margin.

The dead cap for Lattimore is for money that has already been paid. It has to be accounted for. It can't be avoided. It's only about when they would have accounted for it. If they had kept him for 2 more seasons they would be accounting for the outstanding $31M+ plus the $36.5M he was due to earn over that time. It would have delayed the hit not avoided it.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

The dead cap for Lattimore is for money that has already been paid. It has to be accounted for. It can't be avoided. It's only about when they would have accounted for it. If they had kept him for 2 more seasons they would be accounting for the outstanding $31M+ plus the $36.5M he was due to earn over that time. It would have delayed the hit not avoided it.

Thanks again. But please help me understand why there would be any dead cap hit at all if they retained him. I'm not arguing with you I'm just trying to understand. Where is the $31M hit coming from if he is not traded?

 

[fastforward]

Thanks again. But please help me understand why there would be any dead cap hit at all if they retained him. I'm not arguing with you I'm just trying to understand. Where is the $31M hit coming from if he is not traded?

Basic stuff:
With a veteran contract teams normally pay the money that would earn in the 1st, (or early), year(s) of the contract as a signing bonus. It's not a 'bonus' per se. It's just a term that allows the team to account for the money in later years - a buy now pay later scheme of sorts. Thus rather than pay a player a $10M salary in year 1 he'll have a $1M salary and a $9M signing bonus. That bonus is accounted for over the length of the contract, (up to a maximum of 5 years). In this example the team would account for the $1M salary and $1.8M of the bonus, (1/5th), in year 1. The player would receive $10M but the team would be accounting for $1.8M of it in each of the next 4 years.

Lattimore specifics:
Lattimore was paid a $7.5M signing bonus, (instead of salary) in 2021. $1.5M of that is to be accounted for in each of '21, '22, '23, '24, & '25. There was also a 2021 roster bonus of $9.254M which is treated as a signing bonus. $1.8508M of that is to be accounted for in each of '21, '22, '23, '24, & '25. In 2022 the Saints converted $23.1M of his salary into a signing bonus. $4.62M is to be accounted for in '22, '23, '24, '25, & '26. In 2023 the Saints converted $13.42M of his salary into a signing bonus. $2.684M is to be accounted for in '23, '24, '25, '26, & '27. In 2024 the Saints converted $13.79M of his salary into a signing bonus. $2.758M is to be accounted for in '24, '25, '26, '27, & '28.

So...in 2025 there's $1.5M, $1.8508M, $4.62M, $2.684M, & $2.758M of dead money scheduled to be accounted for.
For 2026 and beyond there's $4.62M, 2 X $2.684M, & 3 X $2.758M to be accounted for.
This is all money that has been paid from 2021 to 2024 that hasn't yet been accounted for. It's $13.4M for 2025 and $18.25M in later years.
These are cap debts that can't be avoided.

 

[Pastafazul]

That punchin shit in college ball and NFL knock ball loose?

You miss the ball and make contact with player should be a 15 yard illegal contact

F N ridiculous you throw a punch and get away with it

 

[Caliskinsfan]

restructuring will likely happen and injury concerns/performance will be wrapped into that restructure

 

[shopson67]

restructuring will likely happen and injury concerns/performance will be wrapped into that restructure

Depends on what team you're talking about. The Saints' dead money can't be restructured. Not sure why Washington would restructure, unless part of an extension that pays him more to placate the player.