Packers and Aaron Rodgers...Awww ISH

[kramer1]

Thread cliff notes:

Andy Dalton is a limp wristed Ginger Nancy.

The Packers are going to wax us.


Mods, lock this thread down, please.

 

[cincygrad]

Thread cliff notes:

Andy Dalton is a limp wristed Ginger Nancy.

The Packers are going to wax us.


Mods, lock this thread down, please.

I think you're forgetting that we have two tight ends.

 

[DanBengalfan]

just log off, it's going to get worse.

 

[flamingrey]

Sure, that is a given. Thank God we have a pretty decent QB.

He's actually pretty average.

PFF for the short season has him rated at 0.1 (2.0 Week 1 and -1.9 Week 2), good for 21st in the league.

Last season he had a rating of -1.0 good for 25th in the league, and -7.3 in 2011 good for 28th in the league.

Nothing he does is spectactular. Up to this point he's been nothing more than a game manager. The pieces (coaching and personnel) around him make him look much better than he is.

 

[Servo]

He's actually pretty average.

PFF for the short season has him rated at 0.1 (2.0 Week 1 and -1.9 Week 2), good for 21st in the league.

Last season he had a rating of -1.0 good for 25th in the league, and -7.3 in 2011 good for 28th in the league.

Nothing he does is spectactular. Up to this point he's been nothing more than a game manager. The pieces (coaching and personnel) around him make him look much better than he is.

agree. He's Matt Hasselbeck. You can win with him if your roster is stacked but not seeing a game manager winning a SB. Too many points being put on the board.

 

[packfancjh]

agree. He's Matt Hasselbeck. You can win with him if your roster is stacked but not seeing a game manager winning a SB. Too many points being put on the board.

If Dilfer and Brad Johnson can win one why can't Dalton? You guys have a good defense you just need another wideout opposite Green and I'd say you guys have the talent. Maybe a new coach

 

[bengaldoug]

If Dilfer and Brad Johnson can win one why can't Dalton? You guys have a good defense you just need another wideout opposite Green and I'd say you guys have the talent. Maybe a new coach.

Wanna trade? We'll even throw in an owner/GM to be named later.

 

[Servo]

If Dilfer and Brad Johnson can win one why can't Dalton? You guys have a good defense you just need another wideout opposite Green and I'd say you guys have the talent. Maybe a new coach

Even though it wasn't that long ago it feels like a new era. Look at last year, two of the top defenses in the league play in the SB and it was a shootout. I think you need at least a good QB to win big...and yes, our coach is a total liability. I seriously fail to comprehend how he can be so poor at game management. I don't have 1/100th of the knowledge Marvin Lewis has about football but I would literaly do a better job than him in general game management decisions (i.e. timeout here, challenge this, run the hurry up and try to get points, ground and pound and run clock, punt, try to convert 4th down, etc).

 

[CrashDavisSports]

My point is that the personnel is awesome. I think Dalton's limitations as a down the field thrower may make the offense predictable. That's his comfort zone and that seems to be where Gruden is the most comfortable with him. Quick, easy passes...usually one read. For the offense to become what we all know it can be, Dalton needs to throw the ball down the field. No matter what formation you run out there, if you're throwing under 5 yards 3/4 of the time the defense will key it and likely shut you down. So that's the step I want to see Dalton take. I think that's the step we all want to see him take.

At the end of last year it wasn't like the cupboard was barren. We still had a very good O-line (arguably the best bookend combo in the league) and an all world HOF caliber WR, a talented but erratic TE. Not the greatest show on turf but not bad either. We had plenty to work with...but the OC and QB couldn't get it done.

Dalton was checking down the entire game against Pittsburgh. I don't know where this stupid notion of one read thrower is coming from, because it is false. On timing routes, sure, but when Dalton stands in the pocket he goes through his progressions pretty well. Gruden is most comfortable with Dalton in that role as a quick hit QB because that is the type of offense he employs. This is a WQCO where the playmakers are supposed to gain yards after catch, not the vertical passing game that Palmer was part of where the receiver caught a long ball but was typically tackled right away too. The WCO is predicated on the receiver picking up yards after the catch.

Dalton has had a couple deep passes already this season. But Green was blanketed in the Steelers game and to be honest, he is the only player capable of being a legit deep threat that potentially needs double coverage. If you have another legit deep threat who can beat man coverage consistantly, he will not be in man for long, but that also means it is goign to free up Green. There is no one in the WR core capable of doing that role, nobody, except Green, so forget the deep pass all t he time, because it will be a 1 out of 5 chance if you are lucky. Keep completing balls underneath, make your targets work for yardage after the catch, move the chains, run the clock, wear down the defense.

The WCO offense is a nice extension to the run game. It is basically running the football but through the air. High percentage passes, wear the defense down, keep the chains moving. Everyone has to get over this, needing to go deep so often non-sense. They will go deep when the situation presents itself, and if the defense doesn't lineup to allow it, then we will not, and we will take what we get.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

He's actually pretty average.

PFF for the short season has him rated at 0.1 (2.0 Week 1 and -1.9 Week 2), good for 21st in the league.

Last season he had a rating of -1.0 good for 25th in the league, and -7.3 in 2011 good for 28th in the league.

Nothing he does is spectactular. Up to this point he's been nothing more than a game manager. The pieces (coaching and personnel) around him make him look much better than he is.

Dalton is also not a QB in a vertical passing game, on loaded vertical threat offenses. He is a WC QB where short passing is the name of the game. Compared to a lot of air it out QB's in this league right now, sure his numbers look very average. Take him back 10 to 15 years and he is one of the top QB's in the league. That is the style offense we play now. We do not run this offense where the QB is a threat to run every play which opens up a ton of passing lanes due to the defense having to SPY and READ the QB.

Dalton is a pocket passer, with little to no vertical threat outside Green. We are a tough matchup though with teh double TE sets, now Bernard. We are going to be a short passing game team, keep teh chains moving, where down the clock, accent our run with short passing, and hopefully use our defense to slow down these dangerous offenses. Plus, we will play field position with our good special teams in Nugent and Huber. This is what our team is, so you better quite fucking hoping for another QB like Kaepernick, because it is not going to happen, it is not going to change. This offense is built EXACTLY like Gruden wants, even if you do not like it. It is a 1980's to 1990's WC style offense, plain and simple.

 

[ckhokie]

Crash, you may be misunderstanding 'vertical passing game.' I think most of us understand that we're not going to throw 40 yard passes 7 times a game. I am worried about just being sure our offense can successfully incorporate a 15-25 yard pass plays where we're not relying on a WR or TE to break two tackles.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I'd like to say the Bengals have a shot in this game...they do, but it's got to be ball control offense. Run, wear down the defense. Sustain drives. No dumb-ass pentalties to derail drives. Keep Rodgers off the field. If that happens...there's a chance.

If the offense sputters early, and Rodgers gets a few points on the board, this team can't keep up in a shoot-out. It won't even be close.

31-17 G.B. I hope I'm wrong, though.

 

[Stevein2012]

I think Cincinnati has a better shot than some of you guys are giving them. GB is going to be down their slot corner and best Safety which plays to Cincy's strengths with those 2 TEs. If they stick to a heavy dose of those guys and keep attacking the middle of the secondary they'll probably have some success. The biggest thing I could see getting in the way of that is if Clay Matthews goes off.

I don't know that much about Cincinnati but I believe you typically play great D at home so I'm expecting it to be a really good game.

 

[bengaldoug]

Dalton is also not a QB in a vertical passing game, on loaded vertical threat offenses. He is a WC QB where short passing is the name of the game. Compared to a lot of air it out QB's in this league right now, sure his numbers look very average. Take him back 10 to 15 years and he is one of the top QB's in the league. That is the style offense we play now. We do not run this offense where the QB is a threat to run every play which opens up a ton of passing lanes due to the defense having to SPY and READ the QB.

Dalton is a pocket passer, with little to no vertical threat outside Green. We are a tough matchup though with teh double TE sets, now Bernard. We are going to be a short passing game team, keep teh chains moving, where down the clock, accent our run with short passing, and hopefully use our defense to slow down these dangerous offenses. Plus, we will play field position with our good special teams in Nugent and Huber. This is what our team is, so you better quite fucking hoping for another QB like Kaepernick, because it is not going to happen, it is not going to change. This offense is built EXACTLY like Gruden wants, even if you do not like it. It is a 1980's to 1990's WC style offense, plain and simple.

Crash, Crash, Crash......this is Dalton's third year. He may yet improve a bit, but I think it's pretty much what you see is what you get....what I see is an erratic, inconsistent passer accuracy-wise, and a guy who really struggles to be on target downfield. He is much better when protected than under pressure, and if his first read isn't open he struggles with his progressions. He can succeed as long as his oline plays well and his first read gets open. He's exactly what his critics say he is....average.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Crash, you may be misunderstanding 'vertical passing game.' I think most of us understand that we're not going to throw 40 yard passes 7 times a game. I am worried about just being sure our offense can successfully incorporate a 15-25 yard pass plays where we're not relying on a WR or TE to break two tackles.

Since everyone likes PFF stats...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/29/three-years-of-deep-passing/

This article shows the deep threat QB's in the league and what they do. Most all these teams go deep a whole crap ton. At the bottom of this article is one chart for most accurate deep downfield throwers. Dalton is on this list as one of the most accurate, difference is, he just does not go deep that often. So it isn't that he can't go deep, or that he can't complete a pass deep, just that his style offense does not predicate this type of throw very often. You will notice in that same chart, of all the QB's on that list, Dalton has ZERO deep drops, where everyone else has at least 3. 46.7% completing deep balls is good enough for 6th in the NFL, with no deep drop backs to be in position to really step into a bomb like some of these guys. Usually Dalton is droping back 3 steps and then finding his WR, if the match up favors Green on the outside, he will hit it if possible.

I know what a vertical passing game is, and it shows that the elite QB's of the league are in a vertical passing offense now a days with multiple threats downfield. Dalton is not that same QB, not that he could be super at that, but put him in one of those offenses, and maybe he could do pretty well with that type of offense, but who knows, because that is not the style offense that Gruden runs, nor cares to run.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Crash, Crash, Crash......this is Dalton's third year. He may yet improve a bit, but I think it's pretty much what you see is what you get....what I see is an erratic, inconsistent passer accuracy-wise, and a guy who really struggles to be on target downfield. He is much better when protected than under pressure, and if his first read isn't open he struggles with his progressions. He can succeed as long as his oline plays well and his first read gets open. He's exactly what his critics say he is....average.

Do you think Boomer Esiason was an average QB at best? If so, I guess Dalton is average, because his and Boomers stats are almost identical in their first 3 years playing.

 

[Servo]

Crash, you may be misunderstanding 'vertical passing game.' I think most of us understand that we're not going to throw 40 yard passes 7 times a game. I am worried about just being sure our offense can successfully incorporate a 15-25 yard pass plays where we're not relying on a WR or TE to break two tackles.

Agree. What I'm talking about is the intermediate routes..and our personnel is perfectly suited to pick apart the defense in the 15 to 25 yard range. I think you take your deep shots every once in a while but mostly I'd like to see them hit the intermediate routes.

 

[Servo]

Dalton was checking down the entire game against Pittsburgh. I don't know where this stupid notion of one read thrower is coming from, because it is false. On timing routes, sure, but when Dalton stands in the pocket he goes through his progressions pretty well. Gruden is most comfortable with Dalton in that role as a quick hit QB because that is the type of offense he employs. This is a WQCO where the playmakers are supposed to gain yards after catch, not the vertical passing game that Palmer was part of where the receiver caught a long ball but was typically tackled right away too. The WCO is predicated on the receiver picking up yards after the catch.

Dalton has had a couple deep passes already this season. But Green was blanketed in the Steelers game and to be honest, he is the only player capable of being a legit deep threat that potentially needs double coverage. If you have another legit deep threat who can beat man coverage consistantly, he will not be in man for long, but that also means it is goign to free up Green. There is no one in the WR core capable of doing that role, nobody, except Green, so forget the deep pass all t he time, because it will be a 1 out of 5 chance if you are lucky. Keep completing balls underneath, make your targets work for yardage after the catch, move the chains, run the clock, wear down the defense.

The WCO offense is a nice extension to the run game. It is basically running the football but through the air. High percentage passes, wear the defense down, keep the chains moving. Everyone has to get over this, needing to go deep so often non-sense. They will go deep when the situation presents itself, and if the defense doesn't lineup to allow it, then we will not, and we will take what we get.

It's one read because he throws the ball under 3 seconds from when it's snapped. I get the WCO, but the WCO is not just constant passes under 5 yards. If it was, it would be predictable and easy to stop. WCO as I understand it is predicated on short passing, but also has a fair amount of intermediate routes. That is what we need...intermediate routes. 15 yards through the air with the occasional bomb.

 

[cincygrad]

Do you think Boomer Esiason was an average QB at best? If so, I guess Dalton is average, because his and Boomers stats are almost identical in their first 3 years playing.

Ridiculous.... Without looking it up, I'm fairly confident that average passing yards in the mid 80s were MUCH different than they are now. You can't really compare stats across eras.

 

[Servo]

Since everyone likes PFF stats...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/06/29/three-years-of-deep-passing/

This article shows the deep threat QB's in the league and what they do. Most all these teams go deep a whole crap ton. At the bottom of this article is one chart for most accurate deep downfield throwers. Dalton is on this list as one of the most accurate, difference is, he just does not go deep that often. So it isn't that he can't go deep, or that he can't complete a pass deep, just that his style offense does not predicate this type of throw very often. You will notice in that same chart, of all the QB's on that list, Dalton has ZERO deep drops, where everyone else has at least 3. 46.7% completing deep balls is good enough for 6th in the NFL, with no deep drop backs to be in position to really step into a bomb like some of these guys. Usually Dalton is droping back 3 steps and then finding his WR, if the match up favors Green on the outside, he will hit it if possible.

I know what a vertical passing game is, and it shows that the elite QB's of the league are in a vertical passing offense now a days with multiple threats downfield. Dalton is not that same QB, not that he could be super at that, but put him in one of those offenses, and maybe he could do pretty well with that type of offense, but who knows, because that is not the style offense that Gruden runs, nor cares to run.

When I watch the elite QBs play I don't see them going deep all the time. What I see them do is hitting their WR's in very tight windows 15+ yards down the field. They make the correct read and consistently deliver strikes. Dalton has thrown some beauts...but he lacks consistency because IMO he is just not as gifted throwing the ball as the other guys are. Some people will say it's mechanics which I think is kinda bullshit. I think some people are just more talented than others. Dalton does the best he can with what he's got but at the end of the day he is limited by his talent. He's not a total bum but I'm not sure his best is good enough to get us what we want..a SB.