OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[Crimsoncrew]

At what point did Martin run away? ? Did he not have a battle with Zimmerman?

Yes, he did fight with Zimmerman at some point, after running away. Zimmerman clearly says in the 911 call that Martin is running. That's indisputable. So I find it curious that so many people here have suggested Martin should have run away. He did.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

typo, it was suppose to be *now

If Zimmerman was on top of Martin punching him in the face and Martin shot and killed him. Then the out come of the charges and trial should have been exactly the same. Though I doubt it would have got the same media coverage. The way I understand how this is all started is because they were not going to press charges on Zimmerman. This upset some civil right groups who pressured for charges to brought on Zimmerman. This is also the reason the whole thing got turned into a racial issue.

It's possible. The crucial distinction I see is that Zimmerman was following Martin, not the other way around. Zimmerman's actions forced the two into direct contact. He's also the one who killed the other guy. I have a problem with that.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Anyway, didn't really mean to get sucked back into the meat of this thread. Only reason I came back here initially was because I saw this article recently and it made me think of Sick's comparison of Chicago and Phoenix.

America's most dangerous cities- MSN Money

Of the five most dangerous cities, all except Oakland are in concealed-carry states.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

I'm reluctant to dredge this up, but I haven't been able to visit the board in awhile and wanted to address this.

No one knows what happened with the gun except Zimmerman. It's part of why I think he should have to prove he was acting in self-defense once the prosecution establishes that he followed and killed Martin.

As far as pulling out a gun "just to detain Martin," pointing a gun at someone is a crime in most states. Can't speak for Florida. More importantly, there was absolutely no basis for Zimmerman to detain Martin. That detention most likely would not be valid even if Zimmerman were a uniformed police officer, much less a sketchy citizen who likes to follow people around residential neighborhoods. And the only reason a police officer could claim he had a reasonable suspicion would be flight FROM A POLICE OFFICER. That doesn't apply to weirdos in orange jackets driving pickup trucks.

Finally, as I have mentioned before, Martin also has a right to defend himself. Especially when confronted for no apparent reason by a man with a gun.

You are innocent until proven guilty. Following someone is not a crime so therefore why should he be guilty until proven innocent?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

You are innocent until proven guilty. Following someone is not a crime so therefore why should he be guilty until proven innocent?

Unless an affirmative defense applies. Killing someone is, in most circumstances, a crime. When someone follows and then kills someone else, I believe they should have to prove self-defense. I wouldn't apply that to things like domestic violence and violent crimes short of homicide, but laws shouldn't create an incentive to kill IMO.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Here's some added thoughts regarding the stalking. When Zimmerman first saw Treyvon between the houses at the cut-through he kept driving to the clubhouse to make the call. TM's home is actually closer if he walks another route to the right instead of left to the clubhouse. Maybe if he goes the other way, then Zimmerman trails him. Okay fine, but just keep that in mind. Once he walked to the clubhouse, everything pointed to him continuing out of sight to the side of clubhouse. Zimmerman then backs out and drives around to see where he is. He parks on the street (which way he is initially parked can be disputed).

What I find really interesting is there's a closer alternate path to TM's home which would avoid the parked car. Maybe he wants to check this guy out. Okay. But he made the choice to walk right towards the parked car (it's the point of the call where he nervously says his hands are in his waste band, and can you get a cop out here). Walking right by the car is not a decision someone would make if they're scarred for their life. Everyone criticizes Zimmerman for getting out of the car, but no one criticizes TM for walking right by the car, staring directly at him, and reaching into waste band. The cat and mouse fight and flight game was going on from both sides.

 

[NinerSickness]

I just don't understand people who believe a residential burglary warrants the death penalty.

I don't know about the "death penalty," but if someone breaks into my house there's a good chance I'm going to shoot him before he can pull a weapon on me or try to take mine (hypothetically speaking; I've never owned a gun). If you think that's messed up then I suggest never breaking into my house.

I'm not certain that is an accurate statement of the stand your ground law, but if so, that law is so fucked up it's unbelievable. Why should someone ever be found innocent of some criminal act for killing someone WHO IS RUNNING AWAY FROM THEM???

If it can be proven a guy is running away from a fight I agree with that particular point Crimson. That's hard to prove, but I agree. What I don't agree with is the concept that the victim can be charged with murder is HE doesn't run away. That's just empowering to criminals and it's stupid.

As for self-defense, many states require the person who initiates a physical altercation to attempt to disengage before using lethal force. Florida does not. It's not stand your ground, but it's a similar concept. And is equally silly in that it allows a person so start a fight, lose the fight, and then kill someone "in self-defense."

Sometimes it's not that simple. If I come up and shove you for insulting me and then kick my ass that's one thing. But what if you kick my ass, completely subdue me and then start punching my face repeatedly while I'm on the ground? The initial ass-kicking is technically self-defense, but it is possible to gain the upper hand and then become the aggressor.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Here's some added thoughts regarding the stalking. When Zimmerman first saw Treyvon between the houses at the cut-through he kept driving to the clubhouse to make the call. TM's home is actually closer if he walks another route to the right instead of left to the clubhouse. Maybe if he goes the other way, then Zimmerman trails him. Okay fine, but just keep that in mind. Once he walked to the clubhouse, everything pointed to him continuing out of sight to the side of clubhouse. Zimmerman then backs out and drives around to see where he is. He parks on the street (which way he is initially parked can be disputed).

What I find really interesting is there's a closer alternate path to TM's home which would avoid the parked car. Maybe he wants to check this guy out. Okay. But he made the choice to walk right towards the parked car (it's the point of the call where he nervously says his hands are in his waste band, and can you get a cop out here). Walking right by the car is not a decision someone would make if they're scarred for their life. Everyone criticizes Zimmerman for getting out of the car, but no one criticizes TM for walking right by the car, staring directly at him, and reaching into waste band. The cat and mouse fight and flight game was going on from both sides.

How do we know Martin walked right by the car? Here's what Zimmerman says on the 911 call about Martin's location/behavior:

"Now he's just staring at me."

"Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hands in his waistband."

"Something's wrong with him. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Get an officer over here."

Dispatch: "We've got an officer on the way. Just let me know if he does anything else."

"Ok. These assholes, they always get away."

[Discussion of how to get to Zimmerman's position.]

"Shit, he's running."

[Sound of a car door opening and closing.]

Dispatch: "Are you following him?"

"Yeah."

Dispatch: "Ok, we don't need you to do that."

[Sounds of wind, as if someone is running with a phone.]

Nowhere in there does Zimmerman say anything about Martin walking right by the car. He says Martin walked toward him, but that could mean he walked from 100 yards away to 80 yards away. And shortly after that Martin was running.

Furthermore, toward the end of the recording we get this:

Dispatch: "Ok, do you just want to meet with them right by the mailboxes?"

"Yeah, that's fine. Actually, can you have him call me and I'll tell him where I'm at?"

I can't say for certain what happened after that - again, because Martin is dead - but it certainly seems to me that Martin took a closer look at who was following him and then took off running. It also appears that Zimmerman intended to try to follow him rather than meeting the police at a designated point as suggested by the 911 operator. I'm interested to hear why you believe Martin walked right past the car. And regardless, we know that he took off running immediately after that, so there was clear "flight" at that point.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I don't know about the "death penalty," but if someone breaks into my house there's a good chance I'm going to shoot him before he can pull a weapon on me or try to take mine (hypothetically speaking; I've never owned a gun). If you think that's messed up then I suggest never breaking into my house.

The scenario you laid out involved shooting someone who was fleeing a house they broke into. That is killing someone who is in flight solely because they broke into your house.

I have no problem with people defending their homes with guns if they so choose.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Sometimes it's not that simple. If I come up and shove you for insulting me and then kick my ass that's one thing. But what if you kick my ass, completely subdue me and then start punching my face repeatedly while I'm on the ground? The initial ass-kicking is technically self-defense, but it is possible to gain the upper hand and then become the aggressor.

If you pick a fight while armed with a gun, lose the fight, and then kill someone, I feel pretty strongly that in the vast majority of cases you should be convicted of some crime. Or at least you should have to prove that you don't deserve to be convicted. I believe the self-defense claim should be very difficult to make when you are the one starting shit, especially when you do it knowing that you are armed with a deadly weapon.

Let's say this same scenario occurred, but Zimmerman was not armed. There was a pair of hedge clippers near where they were struggling, and he stabs Martin. I view that as a very different situation. The fact that Zimmerman brought the weapon with him, followed Martin, and killed Martin with the weapon weighs HEAVILY against him in my book. If guns are going to be carried, they should be carried for self-defense. They should not be carried for the sake of emboldening the carrier and causing them to place themselves in potentially dangerous situations.

 

[NinerSickness]

The scenario you laid out involved shooting someone who was fleeing a house they broke into. That is killing someone who is in flight solely because they broke into your house.

I have no problem with people defending their homes with guns if they so choose.

"Fleeing" in the eyes of a prosecutor could just mean you shot him in the back. What if he's just going for cover so they can shoot you?

All bets are off if someone breaks into your house IMO.

But the real issue is situations like holding up a store. I don't want any part of the law to prohibit what a store owner or licensed conceal-carry customer to be in jeopardy of going to jail because of how they chose to stop some asshole armed robber. What if a jewelry store owner follows the guy out the door & shoots him for the sole purpose of getting his merchandise back? I'm 100% ok with that.

Like I said, if you can prove an unarmed guy is running away from a fight, I think a person who shoots him shouldn't be immune from prosecution. That's a point on which we agree; but that's a very hard point to prove.

 

[NinerSickness]

If you pick a fight while armed with a gun, lose the fight, and then kill someone, I feel pretty strongly that in the vast majority of cases you should be convicted of some crime.

I agree 100%. It would have to be extremely clear to eye witnesses that the guy had been completely subdued & the guy continued the beating in order to justify lethal force IMO.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

How do we know Martin walked right by the car? Here's what Zimmerman says on the 911 call about Martin's location/behavior:

"Now he's just staring at me."

"Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hands in his waistband."

"Something's wrong with him. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Get an officer over here."

Dispatch: "We've got an officer on the way. Just let me know if he does anything else."

"Ok. These assholes, they always get away."

[Discussion of how to get to Zimmerman's position.]

"Shit, he's running."

[Sound of a car door opening and closing.]

Dispatch: "Are you following him?"

"Yeah."

Dispatch: "Ok, we don't need you to do that."

[Sounds of wind, as if someone is running with a phone.]

Nowhere in there does Zimmerman say anything about Martin walking right by the car. He says Martin walked toward him, but that could mean he walked from 100 yards away to 80 yards away. And shortly after that Martin was running.

Furthermore, toward the end of the recording we get this:

Dispatch: "Ok, do you just want to meet with them right by the mailboxes?"

"Yeah, that's fine. Actually, can you have him call me and I'll tell him where I'm at?"

I can't say for certain what happened after that - again, because Martin is dead - but it certainly seems to me that Martin took a closer look at who was following him and then took off running. It also appears that Zimmerman intended to try to follow him rather than meeting the police at a designated point as suggested by the 911 operator. I'm interested to hear why you believe Martin walked right past the car. And regardless, we know that he took off running immediately after that, so there was clear "flight" at that point.

During that call everything points to the car being parked on the street between the side of the clubhouse and the cut-through. Martin was at the side of the clubhouse and went to the cut-through. Did he go around? Zimmerman was close enough to him to describe the button on his shirt. It's a line you left out after describing the hands in his waistbands. Can you see a button on someone's shirt from 80 to 100 yards away at night in the rain? Did he just happen to remember that detail from seeing him before? Very unlikely because he's giving the details of what he's seeing, and of what he's doing right then and there. The tone of his voice also changed.

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Crimson I have a question for you: do think if Martin had a bullet hole in his back, a busted up face, and the witness who saw the fight puts Zimmerman on top, that Zimmerman doesn't get charged? How about if it were just one of those three?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

During that call everything points to the car being parked on the street between the side of the clubhouse and the cut-through. Martin was at the side of the clubhouse and went to the cut-through. Did he go around? Zimmerman was close enough to him to describe the button on his shirt. It's a line you left out after describing the hands in his waistbands. Can you see a button on someone's shirt from 80 to 100 yards away at night in the rain? Did he just happen to remember that detail from seeing him before? Very unlikely because he's giving the details of what he's seeing, and of what he's doing right then and there. The tone of his voice also changed.

You are making a ton of assumptions here. You're right, he might have been closer than 80 yards away, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he walked right by Zimmerman's car. It's also worth noting that Martin's sweatshirt did not have any buttons on it, so Zimmerman couldn't have seen all that clearly.

Zimmerman did not specifically lay out where Martin was or where he ran to, other than to say he was near the clubhouse and then ran toward the back entrance. The most reasonable interpretation by far is that Zimmerman was behind Martin at the clubhouse, Martin turned back toward him and may have walked back a bit, then turned and ran away from him, perhaps through the cut-through. The argument that Martin walked right past Zimmerman doesn't make much sense. If he had, either Zimmerman must have been ahead of Martin, or Martin would have been running away from the back entrance. Furthermore, Zimmerman, who was clearly somewhat on edge, almost certainly would have said something like, "He's walking right up to/past/near me." He never says anything like that.

 

[Ibangedlolojones]

Unless an affirmative defense applies. Killing someone is, in most circumstances, a crime. When someone follows and then kills someone else, I believe they should have to prove self-defense. I wouldn't apply that to things like domestic violence and violent crimes short of homicide, but laws shouldn't create an incentive to kill IMO.

The problem is the defense does not have to prove it was self defense they claim it was , the onus is on the prosecution to prove it wasn't......

 

[SEC Official]

Reasonable doubt...

And there was enough reasonable doubt from the beginning where most legal experts admitted this should have NEVER went to trial.

This was an example of the media and so-called "civil rights" idiots pushing an agenda...

 

[MHSL82]

You are making a ton of assumptions here. You're right, he might have been closer than 80 yards away, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he walked right by Zimmerman's car. It's also worth noting that Martin's sweatshirt did not have any buttons on it, so Zimmerman couldn't have seen all that clearly.

Zimmerman did not specifically lay out where Martin was or where he ran to, other than to say he was near the clubhouse and then ran toward the back entrance. The most reasonable interpretation by far is that Zimmerman was behind Martin at the clubhouse, Martin turned back toward him and may have walked back a bit, then turned and ran away from him, perhaps through the cut-through. The argument that Martin walked right past Zimmerman doesn't make much sense. If he had, either Zimmerman must have been ahead of Martin, or Martin would have been running away from the back entrance. Furthermore, Zimmerman, who was clearly somewhat on edge, almost certainly would have said something like, "He's walking right up to/past/near me." He never says anything like that.

I agree, but he was wearing a button. Supporters have worn that as well as hoodies to show their support. He didn't have any button-up buttons, just one of those held with a pin.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I agree, but he was wearing a button. Supporters have worn that as well as hoodies to show their support. He didn't have any button-up buttons, just one of those held with a pin.

Oh, ok. That's news to me. Even so, I don't see a realistic scenario that has Martin walking past Zimmerman while Zimmerman was on the phone.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The problem is the defense does not have to prove it was self defense they claim it was , the onus is on the prosecution to prove it wasn't......

Right. I'm saying I have some problems with that in a case involving homicide. Though having thought about it quite a lot lately, I'm not sure making self-defense an affirmative defense would be the right call in most cases. This case is, after all, pretty unique.

As I noted yesterday, my biggest problem with this by far is that Zimmerman was carrying. If someone is going to carry for self-defense, fine. In that case, you should then go out of your way not to put yourself in a dangerous situation. Rights carry responsibilities, and gun ownership carries more responsibilities than most given the extremely dangerous nature of the tool. Rather than making SAFER decisions because he was strapped, Zimmerman acted in a RISKIER fashion - likely because he was armed. As soon as he does that, it's hard to argue he has a gun for self-defense IMO.