OT: Zimmerman Not Guilty

[threelittleturds]

A lot of really stupid people are very rich and Zimmerman is about to join them.

He has a chance, but it isn't a sure thing. The Martin family already hinted that they'll file a wrongful death civil suit. Those are much easier to win because they don't have to prove it without a reasonable doubt, they just have to prove Zimmerman was negligent. They basically just have to convince the jury that if Zimmerman didn't chase after Martin, Martin would still be alive, any reasonable person will agree with this so the jury would more than likely find him liable.

The one catch is Florida's Stand your Ground Law, with that Zimmerman will be granted a hearing where he has to show that he reasonably feared for death or serious body injury and was justified in using deadly force. If he wins the civil suit gets thrown out, if he loses he goes to trial.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

" white Hispanic." Who has ever heard of such a label?

You know that lots of people in Central/South America are of European descent, right? Spanish people are white, and Spanish people populated many of those areas back in the day. And upper classes in Mexico don't mix with the natives so much - for instance, just about every president of Mexico has been white, indistinguishable from a Spaniard.

 

[NinerSickness]

You can believe that a place is safer if there are lots of people walking around carrying guns. You can also believe that water is not a vital part of existence. However, in both cases evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

Wow. It's that clear-cut for you huh? I actually used to believe the exact same thing, but then I looked at what happened when in the years following strict gun laws and everywhere on earth I looked showed the exact opposite of what you're saying. So I don't know where the crux of our disagreement is; but it's a big one.

What I do know is that people with conceal carry permits hardly ever commit any crimes related to guns. 7 per year in the entire United States isn't exactly an epidemic.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

but then I looked at what happened when in the years following strict gun laws and everywhere on earth I looked showed the exact opposite of what you're saying

Try looking at Australia, which is probably the closest nation culturally and socially to America. Worked there.

 

[NinerSickness]

Everyone suffers from other people's issues. To suggest otherwise is, as I said earlier, absolute bullshit. I didn't own any slaves, I'm not racist, I didn't cause the problem, so I don't care about it? Are you serious? I didn't cause racism, so I don't care about it?

That's bullshit.

I never said I don't care about it. I said I'm not going to let assholes who are trying to CAPITALIZE ON RACISM POLITICALLY get away with trying to tell me (1) I'm part of the problem and (2) things that really aren't racist are examples of racism.

 

[TobyTyler]

He has a chance, but it isn't a sure thing. The Martin family already hinted that they'll file a wrongful death civil suit. Those are much easier to win because they don't have to prove it without a reasonable doubt, they just have to prove Zimmerman was negligent. They basically just have to convince the jury that if Zimmerman didn't chase after Martin, Martin would still be alive, any reasonable person will agree with this so the jury would more than likely find him liable.

The one catch is Florida's Stand your Ground Law, with that Zimmerman will be granted a hearing where he has to show that he reasonably feared for death or serious body injury and was justified in using deadly force. If he wins the civil suit gets thrown out, if he loses he goes to trial.

Ya, I remember they pulled that shit on O.J. and on the cops who beat up Rodney King after they were exonerated. The longer he stays in the news the better chance he has of hitting it big. If a wrongful death suit is filed against him can you imagine the amount of cah that will be raised for his defense? That alone will make his life pretty easy. He's a hero to a lot of people whether they will publicly admit it or not.

 

[NinerSickness]

Try looking at Australia, which is probably the closest nation culturally and socially to America. Worked there.

That was the first place I looked. 1996: They passed the National Firearms Agreement. Armed robberies went up 69% over the next year compared to the previous. Home invasions went up 21%.

It boggles my mind that gun-control people refuse to believe that criminals actually consider whether they're going to get shot or not when they select a place to rob.

 

[imac_21]

I never said I don't care about it. I said I'm not going to let assholes who are trying to CAPITALIZE ON RACISM POLITICALLY get away with trying to tell me (1) I'm part of the problem and (2) things that really aren't racist are examples of racism.

Look at that. Two statements that are not what I called bullshit. Keep trying to shift the argument.

 

[imac_21]

Wow. It's that clear-cut for you huh? I actually used to believe the exact same thing, but then I looked at what happened when in the years following strict gun laws and everywhere on earth I looked showed the exact opposite of what you're saying. So I don't know where the crux of our disagreement is; but it's a big one.

What I do know is that people with conceal carry permits hardly ever commit any crimes related to guns. 7 per year in the entire United States isn't exactly an epidemic.

Yeah. Gun crimes in Canada are out of control. I was out earlier today and couldn't help but think I would be so much safer if a bunch of the people around me had concealed weapons.

 

[imac_21]

That was the first place I looked. 1996: They passed the National Firearms Agreement. Armed robberies went up 69% over the next year compared to the previous. Home invasions went up 21%.

It boggles my mind that gun-control people refuse to believe that criminals actually consider whether they're going to get shot or not when they select a place to rob.

So what you're saying is that a cultural shift doesn't happen instantaneously?

What a huge shock!!!

How do gun crimes look in Australia today?

 

[NinerSickness]

Look at that. Two statements that are not what I called bullshit. Keep trying to shift the argument.

Ok, then what specifically do you think is bullshit? Because what I'm hearing (reading) from you is that it's bullshit to (1) say racism doesn't exist and (2) not care about racism. I agree with those statements.

Maybe you're hearing me say something I'm not.

 

[imac_21]

Ok, then what specifically do you think is bullshit? Because what I'm hearing (reading) from you is that it's bullshit to (1) say racism doesn't exist and (2) not care about racism. I agree with those statements.

Maybe you're hearing me say something I'm not.

What I called bullshit is quoted in the post that I called it bullshit. Go look it up. You chose to dive into the conversation, you figure out what you jumped into.

 

[NinerSickness]

So what you're saying is that a cultural shift doesn't happen instantaneously?

What a huge shock!!!

How do gun crimes look in Australia today?

What I'm saying is that looking at what happens the year after there's a huge shift in gun laws says a lot. Over the following 20 years, gun crime may go up or down for any number of reasons; but when there's a huge spike in gun crime after that legislation is passed, that says a lot.

I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything about this subject. Just know I was willing to believe your side until facts & figures and common sense changed my mind.

 

[imac_21]

What I'm saying is that looking at what happens the year after there's a huge shift in gun laws says a lot. Over the following 20 years, gun crime may go up or down for any number of reasons; but when there's a huge spike in gun crime after that legislation is passed, that says a lot.

I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything about this subject. Just know I was willing to believe your side until facts & figures and common sense changed my mind.

Yeah, why would you want to consider that changes in gun laws could have a long term affect. That's a good reason for the USA to not introduce gun control. If they do it in 2014, then in 2015 they'll see a substantial increase in gun crimes (how did gun crimes change the year after gun control laws in Canada, Japan, Sweden, Switzerland etc?). Who cares if gun crimes are lower in all developed nations with gun control. They go up in the year immediately following the passing of those laws, so gun control laws are bad.

Remind me again why I should want people carrying guns in a country of 33 million people that averages about 600 homicides each year.

 

[NinerSickness]

What I called bullshit is quoted in the post that I called it bullshit. Go look it up. You chose to dive into the conversation, you figure out what you jumped into.

Ok. Someone said it was "ill advised" to say a black politician made race relations worse. rvnight replied:

Why? I never owned slaves. I am not racist. I don't care what your skin color is. If someone is doing something wrong IMO, I don't care what color they are. I will not have my freedom of speech taken away because I have to tip toe around what happened in the past. I wasn't there. I didnt cause the problem.

You replied:

And I'm sorry, but "I didn't cause the problem" is one of the most bullshit things I've ever read. Particularly given the treatment so many Muslims receive in your wonderful country.

So the "I didn't cause the problem" part what you call bull shit. Well, you're wrong. rvnight didn't cause the problem, so it's not bull shit. If you're saying it's bull shit to not take racism (that rvnight didn't cause) as a reason it is "ill advised" to criticize a black politician, then THAT is bull shit.

Again, this goes back to my point about capitalizing on racism politically. Liberals want to use racism as a free pass for Barack Obama to avoid criticism; and they try to tie racism to their political opponents in the most intellectually dishonest ways as if the charge were Teflon.

 

[NinerSickness]

Remind me again why I should want people carrying guns in a country of 33 million people that averages about 600 homicides each year.

To protect you from polar bears.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Keeping an eye one someone isn't starting a confrontation, genius. Maybe you need to do a little more research. No word in the dictionary is gonna help you prove intent or motivation. No word will define who started this debacle.

Martin wouldn't have even known Zimmerman was there unless Zimmerman was following him. We don't know who initiated direct contact, but Zimmerman was the one who initiated the face-to-face meeting.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Crimson acts like such a child sometimes when confronted with his flawed logic that I did not feel like responding to him and escalating the situation like Martin did.

I'm the one using flawed logic? Sure thing, boss. At least I know what the word confrontation means.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Definitely. And I'd have no problem doing it since you were in the wrong wanting to start a physical confrontation with me. Guns are the great equalizer when bullies, which your opinions on this subject lead me to believe you are, get aggressive. I have a feeling you are a big guy; am I wrong?

BTW thanks for letting me know I "am not a man". That explains a lot of my confusion on the subject.

They're the "great equalizer" when both parties are armed. When they're not, they allow weaklings to be bullies, or bullies to be even bigger bullies. Zimmerman probably doesn't get out of the car unless he has the gun.

 

[abaskin18]

What I'm saying is that looking at what happens the year after there's a huge shift in gun laws says a lot. Over the following 20 years, gun crime may go up or down for any number of reasons; but when there's a huge spike in gun crime after that legislation is passed, that says a lot.

I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything about this subject. Just know I was willing to believe your side until facts & figures and common sense changed my mind.

Yeah, because the same myriad of variables that occur over the span of 20 years don't exist in the perfect vacuum of a single year. Small sample sizes are just neat when they suggest what you're reaching to prove. It wasn't an argument when you made it after Newtown and it still isn't one.

Admittedly, causality and correlation are tricky figs (read or see Freakonomics RE: Crime & Roe v. Wade, fascinating stuff), but the only thing that's shown to decrease gun violence in the modern age is increased gun restrictions enforced over a period of years. Speculated fantasies are all an opponent of that idea can suggest to keep the discussion alive.