OT: Shooting in Oregon Mall

[dare2be]

+1 to D'stone on the kindness stuff. I see lots of smiles, and door holding, and people offering others food, etc. etc. most days. There is nastiness out there for sure, but I see WAY more good than bad.

I see many fewer smiles (if people will even look at each other at all when passing), less door holding, and many times (at least 50%) when I hold a door for someone I won't even get a thank you or an acknowledgement, like it's my fricken job. Less courteous driving than when I started driving 30 years ago, more inconsiderate loud blasting car stereos at 2am...the list goes on. No, I see a much more self-centered, individualistic, me-first society than I did 20-30 years ago.

I can give DS a pass, he's young and doesn't have enough life credits built up for comparison.

 

[Darkstone42]

The problem withthe comparisons to Japan is it is an island nation that is not the biggest single destination of immigrants from (hypothesis here but I can check later) ten of the fifteen most violent countries in the world. Also, it does not have the military history and therefore the sheer number of guns on the market.

I'm not even saying gun control is not a part if the solution. It is simply much more complex than just gun control. That is an easy rallying cry to scream from the mountain. Jus look at your Facebook I am sure, but it is a lot more complex than that.

If our culture is that deeply ingrained, then the only ways to change it are a sudden mentality shift, which is unlikely, or a significant environmental change to influence that change. You cannot control what and how people think. What you can do is put them in an environment which can lead to a gradual thought preference in one direction or the other over several generations. And if statistics come to support that the environmental change was well-conceived, that will galvanize the favor to the school of thought the change promoted.

As an aside, in reference to increased black market sales, I don't believe that would actually be the case. Most black market gun sales center around gangs, and gangs generally target other gangs and untrustworthy clients. While obviously any murder is a terrible thing, I do believe that there is little we can do about gang activity through any form of gun control. We can, however, cut down on "crime of passion" murders and at least some of the shooting sprees. As I understand the culture of black market sales, it is very difficult for "outsiders" to get in, especially in the weapons trade. They need to cover their tales, and letting any average Joe buy from them could lead to easy tracing. Most of these mass killing incidents are committed by average Joes from the perspective of black market dealers. I really do making it harder to buy guns legally would make it difficult for these lunatics to get them.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

If our culture is that deeply ingrained, then the only ways to change it are a sudden mentality shift, which is unlikely, or a significant environmental change to influence that change. You cannot control what and how people think. What you can do is put them in an environment which can lead to a gradual thought preference in one direction or the other over several generations. And if statistics come to support that the environmental change was well-conceived, that will galvanize the favor to the school of thought the change promoted.

As an aside, in reference to increased black market sales, I don't believe that would actually be the case. Most black market gun sales center around gangs, and gangs generally target other gangs and untrustworthy clients. While obviously any murder is a terrible thing, I do believe that there is little we can do about gang activity through any form of gun control. We can, however, cut down on "crime of passion" murders and at least some of the shooting sprees. As I understand the culture of black market sales, it is very difficult for "outsiders" to get in, especially in the weapons trade. They need to cover their tales, and letting any average Joe buy from them could lead to easy tracing. Most of these mass killing incidents are committed by average Joes from the perspective of black market dealers. I really do making it harder to buy guns legally would make it difficult for these lunatics to get them.

It isn't about buying guns from the gangs that import them. It is about how the movement of the guns follows the multibillion dollar movement of drugs and simply saturates the market. It is evident in the inner cities. Then normal, law abiding citizens feel the need to own similar guns to protect themselves. It is a vicious cycle. Look at the criminology literature on it. You would be hard pressed to find anything that doesn't tell you that gun availability (legal or illegal) is not the only true predictor of gun violence.

Crimes like this, VT, Norway, Aurora are so complex, that I am not sure simple gun laws can stop them at all.

I will tell you one that can help. W are cutting edge in the fields of infectious disease and chronic diseases in this country. We lag behind, however, on mental health issues and it shows. I am not sure why. I would hazard a guess that stigmatization is part of it, but I am not sure. The study of violence is actually pretty straight forward, however what it shows (as simple as it is) is a complex matrix of causation. Play around on Google Scholar or Sociofile for a while. It is fascinating.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Major point of the above:

It's not like MS-13 is selling guns to nut jobs. It is that MS-13 bring guns in, use them and then dump them, therefore saturating the market. A similar thing happened in the 80s with the Crack epidemic.

 

[evolver115]

As an aside, in reference to increased black market sales, I don't believe that would actually be the case. Most black market gun sales center around gangs, and gangs generally target other gangs and untrustworthy clients. While obviously any murder is a terrible thing, I do believe that there is little we can do about gang activity through any form of gun control. We can, however, cut down on "crime of passion" murders and at least some of the shooting sprees. As I understand the culture of black market sales, it is very difficult for "outsiders" to get in, especially in the weapons trade. They need to cover their tales, and letting any average Joe buy from them could lead to easy tracing. Most of these mass killing incidents are committed by average Joes from the perspective of black market dealers. I really do making it harder to buy guns legally would make it difficult for these lunatics to get them.

Be careful of underestimating the average Joe. He has shown in this country's history that he will go to great lengths to get what he wants. especially when something in this country that was once legal, but then taken away (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana), there will always be another market created to profit from the demand.

 

[dare2be]

I will tell you one that can help. W are cutting edge in the fields of infectious disease and chronic diseases in this country. We lag behind, however, on mental health issues and it shows. I am not sure why. I would hazard a guess that stigmatization is part of it, but I am not sure. The study of violence is actually pretty straight forward, however what it shows (as simple as it is) is a complex matrix of causation. Play around on Google Scholar or Sociofile for a while. It is fascinating.

I agree with this. Too much emphasis is put on punitive measures as a means of prevention instead of really trying to understand the underlying causation. It's seen as weak to try to understand how or why someone could do something like this, and just want to fight fire with fire (or firearms with firearms).

 

[elocomotive]

I see many fewer smiles (if people will even look at each other at all when passing), less door holding, and many times (at least 50%) when I hold a door for someone I won't even get a thank you or an acknowledgement, like it's my fricken job. Less courteous driving than when I started driving 30 years ago, more inconsiderate loud blasting car stereos at 2am...the list goes on. No, I see a much more self-centered, individualistic, me-first society than I did 20-30 years ago.

That's because 25 years ago YOU were the kid some middle-aged guy was complaining about.

Manners are definitely down. They have shown that in repeated studies. You also have less drunk driving, you have kids involved in charities and social causes like we never even thought of when we were that age, etc.

I see lots of smiles, but maybe it's just because I'm just better looking than you. Also, I guarantee you gay people, black people, and women will tell you the world is a friendlier place now than it was 30 years ago.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

I agree with this. Too much emphasis is put on punitive measures as a means of prevention instead of really trying to understand the underlying causation. It's seen as weak to try to understand how or why someone could do something like this, and just want to fight fire with fire (or firearms with firearms).

Right.

In this case, there is no simple answer. The kid wasn't bullied (Columbine). He didn't have a violent past (VT). His Mom bought the guns legally in a state that is actually pretty restrictive with gun sales. He simply hit the softest target there could be, a kindergarten class. The only thing that I think could have stopped this was an armed guard and metal detector like the ones I have to walk past on the way to work. I am not sure how we would feel about that in our elementary schools.

A deranged kid, got guns from his Mom, found the proverbial "fish in the barrel" and aimed well. Where on that chain do you intervene.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

That's because 25 years ago YOU were the kid some middle-aged guy was complaining about.

Manners are definitely down. They have shown that in repeated studies. You also have less drunk driving, you have kids involved in charities and social causes like we never even thought of when we were that age, etc.

I see lots of smiles, but maybe it's just because I'm just better looking than you.

You also see a lot of homeless blow jobs, so it might be your environment.

 

[dare2be]

I see lots of smiles, but maybe it's just because I'm just better looking than you.

What you perceive as smiles is just the squinting grimace from the sun reflection from your head getting in their eyes.

No, it's more than just manners. It's more of a general disregard for fellow humans around them. They can't be bothered with others and their problems because they are preoccupied with their own problems.

 

[elocomotive]

Crimes like this, VT, Norway, Aurora are so complex, that I am not sure simple gun laws can stop them at all.

Not stopping them all does not mean you can't help prevent or lessen the impact of SOME!!!!

 

[elocomotive]

You also see a lot of homeless blow jobs, so it might be your environment.

Nice zing!! What isn't kind about a blow job? It's like the greatest gift of all.

 

[Darkstone42]

Not stopping them all does not mean you can't help prevent or lessen the impact of SOME!!!!

That's how I feel. There are a lot of angles to come at this issue. Just because others exist doesn't mean we should ignore one.

Heavier research into mental illness, crackdowns on bullying, better educational environments, and gun control laws are all necessary.

 

[dare2be]

Stop the manufacturing of bullets, and replace them with rubber bullets.

 

[Comeds]

That's because 25 years ago YOU were the kid some middle-aged guy was complaining about.

Manners are definitely down. They have shown that in repeated studies. You also have less drunk driving, you have kids involved in charities and social causes like we never even thought of when we were that age, etc.

I see lots of smiles, but maybe it's just because I'm just better looking than you. Also, I guarantee you gay people, black people, and women will tell you the world is a friendlier place now than it was 30 years ago.

Third world manners.....

 

[elocomotive]

No, it's more than just manners. It's more of a general disregard for fellow humans around them. They can't be bothered with others and their problems because they are preoccupied with their own problems.

That's still just manners. I think the kindness and goodness that Darkstone talked about is still there. But I've always said that cycnicism is higher on a message board than it is in real life, so I'm not surprised there are more negative views than positive ones on the whole here. I agree with you on the manners, but not the other stuff.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

I keep hearing the talking heads saying we need to get guns off the street. Well, gun control may make a small dent in that, but it will not make much of a difference. They are there. Most of the war machine guns did not get there from Bass Pro Shops.

 

[elocomotive]

That's how I feel. There are a lot of angles to come at this issue. Just because others exist doesn't mean we should ignore one.

Heavier research into mental illness, crackdowns on bullying, better educational environments, and gun control laws are all necessary.

The cheapest and easiest of which is gun control measures that restrict certain weapons and lengthen time and ease of getting guns. Maybe age limits as well.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Also, I don't think that events like this are avoidable. i don't think the VT shooting is avoidable. I don't think Ok City was avoidable. We learn from them but in a country of 300 million where we allow the freedoms we do, stuff will happen. The 24 hour news cycle exacerbates and glorifies it.

Example, do you know that we (the US) were the target of a massive bioterrorist event that sickened over 700 people?

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

FTR, none of these events would have EVER happened in Saudi Arabia. However, we don't want that life. It is a balancing act.