Ortiz and the HOF

[apachef4]

I think people have made good points in both directions in this thread. But this is why they wait 5 years, so they can take a step back and look at things through a more neutral eye and not be affected by the emotions of the moment.

 

[gunnarthor]

There is no way in hell he doesnt get into the PED user-HOF.

Fixed that for you.

As to the real one, I don't think he'll get in. The old writers will hold his PED use against him and the statbased writers who may not care about PED use will not be impressed by his remarkably low WAR. Rice, who they hated, was a better WAR guy.

 

[podsox]

He's a great power hitter but he's a hitter only. The HOF is for baseball players who play the complete game not just one dimensional. This is exactly what I was afraid of when the designated hitter rule first came into existance. Someone who can only hit getting into the HOF, geez the HOF has been watered down enough as it is. While a very good hitter he doesn't belong in the HOF.

Then don't let starting pitchers in. They pitch about 20% of the games and half of them don't hit. Most of the ones that do don't belong in a major league lineup

 

[navamind]

Fixed that for you.

As to the real one, I don't think he'll get in. The old writers will hold his PED use against him and the statbased writers who may not care about PED use will not be impressed by his remarkably low WAR. Rice, who they hated, was a better WAR guy.

This is true. But 3.0 in 809 PA isn't a big advantage in all. I think Ortiz is certainly capable of matching that total in fewer plate appearances.

EDIT: Of course, the gap in Fangraphs' WAR is a lot bigger. 50.8 vs. 40.9.

I'd like to see Ortiz stay healthy and have three or four more good years, and then maybe I'd vote for him (well, if I had a vote).

 

[Tigertowner68]

It makes no sense to say the DH is too specialized and then let a bunch of relief pitchers in. I have no problem with Mo getting in. He deserves it more than any of the others, or at least as much as any of them but some of them are questionable, to say the least.

FWIW, I think both Edgar and Big Papi deserve it.

If one looks at the numbers that Ortiz has posted during the regular seasons, they are just good enough. Then consider that he led the Red Sox past NY after spotting the Yankees a 3 games to none deficit into the first World Title for Boston since 1918; Then look at his overall postseason impact including the grand slam against the Tigers that completely turned that series. Then look at him batting over .700 in this year's World Series when everyone else on both teams struggled mightily just to make the Mendoza line. Most didn't even make it.

So, just what is the case against him again?

 

[gvsulaker82]

Y! SPORTS

I really don't see the case for him right now. Edgar Martinez was a better hitter and not too many people think he should get in (I think he should though).

Edgar: .312/.418/.515, 147 OPS+ in 8674 PA
Ortiz: .287/.381/.549, 139 OPS+ in 8249 PA

Ortiz was a much better power hitter, but Edgar got on base a lot more. Not to mention Edgar was actually a good 3rd baseman before the hamstring injury. Ortiz has played just over 200 games at 1B. Edgar also has 24.1 more WAR.

What are his career power numbers, those are kind of important when making the determination.

 

[gvsulaker82]

If a player makes or didnt make the playoffs should definitely factor into HOF consideration.

 

[HammerDown]

He wasn't even good enough without 'roids. With? Not a chance.

 

[LogicMan]

All one needs to do is look at Yankee HOF's in Cooperstown to know guys get in on emotional reasons versus performance on the field. I would enjoy " Smarterthanyou", explaining how Rizzuto, Gordon or Lazzeri, all recent inductees, got in . Sad.

In modern times, against pitchers with amazing stuff, both David's and Beltran's numbers are sick in the post season. Mr. Clutch has delivered us three titles. His lifetime batting stats in the toughest division BY FAR for pitching is over the top.

He will get in, but it will be in secured in about 3 years when he wins his fourth title. By then, he will be known as the greatest modern day player in the post season. he will be the Reggie of my child's generation.

 

[StanMarsh51]

All one needs to do is look at Yankee HOF's in Cooperstown to know guys get in on emotional reasons versus performance on the field. I would enjoy " Smarterthanyou", explaining how Rizzuto, Gordon or Lazzeri, all recent inductees, got in . Sad.

In modern times, against pitchers with amazing stuff, both David's and Beltran's numbers are sick in the post season. Mr. Clutch has delivered us three titles. His lifetime batting stats in the toughest division BY FAR for pitching is over the top.

He will get in, but it will be in secured in about 3 years when he wins his fourth title. By then, he will be known as the greatest modern day player in the post season. he will be the Reggie of my child's generation.

You've mentioned 3 players that were elected via the Veterans Committee after not being voted in by the BBWAA...not really the same thing.

 

[steveringo]

All one needs to do is look at Yankee HOF's in Cooperstown to know guys get in on emotional reasons versus performance on the field. I would enjoy " Smarterthanyou", explaining how Rizzuto, Gordon or Lazzeri, all recent inductees, got in . Sad.

In modern times, against pitchers with amazing stuff, both David's and Beltran's numbers are sick in the post season. Mr. Clutch has delivered us three titles. His lifetime batting stats in the toughest division BY FAR for pitching is over the top.

He will get in, but it will be in secured in about 3 years when he wins his fourth title. By then, he will be known as the greatest modern day player in the post season. he will be the Reggie of my child's generation.

Who is "Smarterthanyou"?

 

[navamind]

What are his career power numbers, those are kind of important when making the determination.

Career ISO:
Ortiz: .262
Martinez: .203

Edgar also played in a tougher ballpark, managed a higher average and OBP. 37 points of OBP is very significant.

 

[Bulldog]

you seriously can't think that...just look at the Yankees in the HOF, some of them made it, just because of the post seasons on their resume.

When you pull up a players stats all you see is the stats for the regular season. There are no post season stats given. When the MVP, Cy Young, Silver Slugger awards etc. are determined they are done before post season play. It's done for a reason, so post season play doesn't unduely influence voting, it would give post season players an undo advantage. Don't you think it works the same way for the HOF. Why would one of two players, both with similar numbers during regular season play, go into the HOF, simply because he had good post season numbers, while the other never had that opportunity? Does that really make since to you?

 

[LogicMan]

Yes it does.

 

[HammerDown]

papi has proven to be clutch time and time again.

Stick him in the HoF then!!! After all, he's "clutch!"

Manny was better than Ortiz but neither deserve to be in the HoF.

 

[da55bums]

When you pull up a players stats all you see is the stats for the regular season. There are no post season stats given. When the MVP, Cy Young, Silver Slugger awards etc. are determined they are done before post season play. It's done for a reason, so post season play doesn't unduely influence voting, it would give post season players an undo advantage. Don't you think it works the same way for the HOF. Why would one of two players, both with similar numbers during regular season play, go into the HOF, simply because he had good post season numbers, while the other never had that opportunity? Does that really make since to you?

No, it does NOT work that way for the HOF also, not even close. They even wait 5 years to make sure everything is considered.

You have to be under 30 yrs old...there is no way you don't understand it otherwise, other then not to knowledgable about who is actually in the HOF.

 

[HammerDown]

He's an Angels and Dodgers fan. What do you expect? That's absolutely no different than a Red Sox and Yankees fan.

 

[LogicMan]

I think thats a slap to all those true Angels fans out there. All three of them are upset!

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Go figure Yankee's fans calling out Papi for PED use...holy shit

Uh... I clearly said I don't care about it. But it's there, and it's prevented plenty of far superior players from getting in the HOF.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

He's a great power hitter but he's a hitter only. The HOF is for baseball players who play the complete game not just one dimensional. This is exactly what I was afraid of when the designated hitter rule first came into existance. Someone who can only hit getting into the HOF, geez the HOF has been watered down enough as it is. While a very good hitter he doesn't belong in the HOF.

There are plenty of players in the HOF who did nothing but hit. Hitting is pretty important, FYI.