Oops Neal did it again

[forty_three]

HockeyBuzz.com - Paul Stewart - James Neal: The Poster Child for What's Wrong With NHL Discipline System

I miss Paul Stewart.

Discipline should be handled by a committee of 3 guys. One former player, one former ref and one former GM. So the full impact of on ice events can be measured. And it would keep personal prejudices out of it.

Paul Stewart is the ref I would want in that role.

 

[BF4L]

I miss Paul Stewart.

Discipline should be handled by a committee of 3 guys. One former player, one former ref and one former GM. So the full impact of on ice events can be measured. And it would keep personal prejudices out of it.

Paul Stewart is the ref I would want in that role.

Me too. Was the best ref on the ice IMO.

 

[BF4L]

HockeyBuzz.com - Paul Stewart - James Neal: The Poster Child for What's Wrong With NHL Discipline System

Fantastic read Thanks Awaz. The comments are great too.

 

[dash]

Holy flop Batman, come on Kneel, that's embarrassing...

/Not only to you, but to the entire Penguins team.

 

[awaz]

I miss Paul Stewart.

Discipline should be handled by a committee of 3 guys. One former player, one former ref and one former GM. So the full impact of on ice events can be measured. And it would keep personal prejudices out of it.

Paul Stewart is the ref I would want in that role.

i like that suggestion. would be a pretty fair way to do it i think.

 

[evolver115]

I find it ironic that Stewart singles out a high skill player like Neal for his lack of on ice sportsmanship, which by the way is 100% true and I am in no way defending, yet the league on a whole is littered with low skill, dirty hooligans like a Sestito, Rinaldo, Carcillo, Scott, Orr, Downie, Dorsett, Cooke and Carkner etc. Every one of the previous elicit and encourage the type of behavior that Neal crosses the line with. They do it for the proverbial hockey tactic of 'getting under the opponent's skin' to draw a retaliatory penalty.

My question then is this.. if you don't want the random cheap shot and retaliatory penalties that are pretty regular and generally occur night in and night out across the league, then why are guys like the ones I've mentioned here still collecting paychecks in the NHL?

You reap what you sow. If the NHL was serious about protecting the players on the ice, then they would encourage their franchises to pay the skill players and cut the low skill beer league hacks. This doesn't even get into the other elephant in the room which is the role of the enforcer...

Are we really surprised that the NHL makes a mockery of their punishment and player safety reviews when there are guys being paid to incite this very behavior?

 

[dash]

My question then is this.. if you don't want the random cheap shot and retaliatory penalties that are pretty regular and generally occur night in and night out across the league, then why are guys like the ones I've mentioned here still collecting paychecks in the NHL?

I think the main reason is because it is difficult to score goals 5-on-5 in the NHL and having a guy on your team that can get under the skin of an opposing player is one way to get power play time for your team.

Getting back to the Stewart article, it was interesting that he called out Crosby for not showing leadership in talking to Neal and telling him to cut out the diving. However, what if the coach is instructing his players to dive in order to try to draw penalties? I mean, would any of us be surprised if that's a tactic that coaches in the league are telling the players to employ?

 

[forty_three]

I think the main reason is because it is difficult to score goals 5-on-5 in the NHL and having a guy on your team that can get under the skin of an opposing player is one way to get power play time for your team.

Getting back to the Stewart article, it was interesting that he called out Crosby for not showing leadership in talking to Neal and telling him to cut out the diving. However, what if the coach is instructing his players to dive in order to try to draw penalties? I mean, would any of us be surprised if that's a tactic that coaches in the league are telling the players to employ?

This is the fertile ground that cultivated my hatred of Lindy Ruff and the late 90's Sabres teams. It happened so much that it HAD to be a strategy.

 

[evolver115]

I think the main reason is because it is difficult to score goals 5-on-5 in the NHL and having a guy on your team that can get under the skin of an opposing player is one way to get power play time for your team.

Getting back to the Stewart article, it was interesting that he called out Crosby for not showing leadership in talking to Neal and telling him to cut out the diving. However, what if the coach is instructing his players to dive in order to try to draw penalties? I mean, would any of us be surprised if that's a tactic that coaches in the league are telling the players to employ?

If they are paying players to take cheap shots after the whistle and generally to be a dick to draw penalties, I'd say it's pretty much a given that they also encourage them to take a dive, as well.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

I think the main reason is because it is difficult to score goals 5-on-5 in the NHL and having a guy on your team that can get under the skin of an opposing player is one way to get power play time for your team.

Getting back to the Stewart article, it was interesting that he called out Crosby for not showing leadership in talking to Neal and telling him to cut out the diving. However, what if the coach is instructing his players to dive in order to try to draw penalties? I mean, would any of us be surprised if that's a tactic that coaches in the league are telling the players to employ?

This is the fertile ground that cultivated my hatred of Lindy Ruff and the late 90's Sabres teams. It happened so much that it HAD to be a strategy.

Gordon Bombay supports this tactic.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

If they are paying players to take cheap shots after the whistle and generally to be a dick to draw penalties, I'd say it's pretty much a given that they also encourage them to take a dive, as well.

I don't think they're intentionally telling them to take cheap shots, the guys you mentioned are just too bone-headed to get it.

But none of the teams is going to be the first to change. It's a big Cold War style argument: "well, if we get rid of our enforcers and they don't, we'll be seen as soft."

Until the league gets serious about this crap - against enforcers, goons, skilled players, goalies, coaches, etc. - it's not going to change.

 

[Cobiemonster]

evolver's point - I think the issue with James Neal is that he knows he's a star player so he can get away with doing those things - the league is more hesitant to suspend a star player for that more so than if it was a borderline player - as far as the goons go, it's not the goons fault, it's the teams fault for employing these guys - the goons are just going out there and doing what they can to stay on a roster - the teams shouldn't be signing/having these guys on the roster if they really want to get rid of them

 

[awaz]

I find it ironic that Stewart singles out a high skill player like Neal for his lack of on ice sportsmanship, which by the way is 100% true and I am in no way defending, yet the league on a whole is littered with low skill, dirty hooligans like a Sestito, Rinaldo, Carcillo, Scott, Orr, Downie, Dorsett, Cooke and Carkner etc. Every one of the previous elicit and encourage the type of behavior that Neal crosses the line with. They do it for the proverbial hockey tactic of 'getting under the opponent's skin' to draw a retaliatory penalty.

My question then is this.. if you don't want the random cheap shot and retaliatory penalties that are pretty regular and generally occur night in and night out across the league, then why are guys like the ones I've mentioned here still collecting paychecks in the NHL?

You reap what you sow. If the NHL was serious about protecting the players on the ice, then they would encourage their franchises to pay the skill players and cut the low skill beer league hacks. This doesn't even get into the other elephant in the room which is the role of the enforcer...

Are we really surprised that the NHL makes a mockery of their punishment and player safety reviews when there are guys being paid to incite this very behavior?

see i think there is a place for getting under the opponents skin. i think it's pretty widely known that if you get under malkin's skin, not only does he become less effective for the pens, but he also starts taking penalties. there's definitely room in the game for that type of behavior. i mean you list downie and rinaldo on there, and i don't blame you for that based on their histories, but neither of them have been suspended or fined, and i can't think of an instance where there was even a review this year for either of them. they've played those roles effectively this season (at least, rinaldo has, downie sucks), while staying on the right side of the line. max talbot is another one, and i hate his guts, but he stays on the right side of the line more often then not. and i'm sure there are other agitators that stay the course, i just dont watch enough to eliminate labels on other guys.

what there isn't room for, is cross checking people in the head, kneeing people in the head, slashing people's eyes, sucker punches, slew foots etc.. i think the problem arises because more often then not, the agitator type players cross the line, and that's where this type of stuff comes up. and i think it's a sad state of affairs when you have to think about the removal of players getting under each others skin, because your players aren't smart enough to know what's ok and what isn't. or even worse, when your league isn't smart enough to consistently inform the players what's ok and what isn't.

i think what's so discouraging about Neal is that he's actually a really good hockey player. he doesn't have to resort to this type of stuff to try to make a name for himself, or to carve out a role for himself. he's a bonafide top 6 power forward, there's no need for this stuff from him. he's simply doing it because he can.

 

[dash]

evolver's point - I think the issue with James Neal is that he knows he's a star player so he can get away with doing those things - the league is more hesitant to suspend a star player for that more so than if it was a borderline player - as far as the goons go, it's not the goons fault, it's the teams fault for employing these guys - the goons are just going out there and doing what they can to stay on a roster - the teams shouldn't be signing/having these guys on the roster if they really want to get rid of them

It's good in theory Cobie, but as sabresfan said, it's a Cold War arms race and if one team is loading up with beef, you know the other team will be doing the same. I don't mind the enforcers as much as sneaky rat bastiges, get rid of the guys that cause things to escalate in the first place.

/Again, unlikely to happen because GMs like the rats that get star players off their games.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

see i think there is a place for getting under the opponents skin. i think it's pretty widely known that if you get under malkin's skin, not only does he become less effective for the pens, but he also starts taking penalties. there's definitely room in the game for that type of behavior. i mean you list downie and rinaldo on there, and i don't blame you for that based on their histories, but neither of them have been suspended or fined, and i can't think of an instance where there was even a review this year for either of them. they've played those roles effectively this season (at least, rinaldo has, downie sucks), while staying on the right side of the line. max talbot is another one, and i hate his guts, but he stays on the right side of the line more often then not. and i'm sure there are other agitators that stay the course, i just dont watch enough to eliminate labels on other guys.

what there isn't room for, is cross checking people in the head, kneeing people in the head, slashing people's eyes, sucker punches, slew foots etc.. i think the problem arises because more often then not, the agitator type players cross the line, and that's where this type of stuff comes up. and i think it's a sad state of affairs when you have to think about the removal of players getting under each others skin, because your players aren't smart enough to know what's ok and what isn't. or even worse, when your league isn't smart enough to consistently inform the players what's ok and what isn't.

i think what's so discouraging about Neal is that he's actually a really good hockey player. he doesn't have to resort to this type of stuff to try to make a name for himself, or to carve out a role for himself. he's a bonafide top 6 power forward, there's no need for this stuff from him. he's simply doing it because he can.

That's no different than the Matt Cooke/Raffi Torres discussions though. How long has to pass before you can reasonably argue a guy has cleaned up his game?

 

[Cobiemonster]

It's good in theory Cobie, but as sabresfan said, it's a Cold War arms race and if one team is loading up with beef, you know the other team will be doing the same. I don't mind the enforcers as much as sneaky rat bastiges, get rid of the guys that cause things to escalate in the first place.

/Again, unlikely to happen because GMs like the rats that get star players off their games.

Yeah the players should know better as well, but at some point, when players have reputations and teams know this stuff when they go to sign them, some of the responsibility does have to go on the team as well for bringing that distraction on their team

As far as the Cold War arms race, I've always been of the theory that if the opposing team wants to put their pugilists out there, let them do it and get power plays out of it - but then you run the risks of those pugilists going after your better players - but that is where the incompetency of the refs comes into play and they need to take control and be proactive, not reactive

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Yeah the players should know better as well, but at some point, when players have reputations and teams know this stuff when they go to sign them, some of the responsibility does have to go on the team as well for bringing that distraction on their team

As far as the Cold War arms race, I've always been of the theory that if the opposing team wants to put their pugilists out there, let them do it and get power plays out of it - but then you run the risks of those pugilists going after your better players - but that is where the incompetency of the refs comes into play and they need to take control and be proactive, not reactive

Simply putting the goons on the ice isn't a penalty though. You can hand out the penalties after they attack the stars and the league can hand out these ridiculous "player selection" fines (I maintain it's ridiculous because Scott & co. were already on the ice when the Kessel line came on), but they can't really stop it from happening.

And what consolation would a couple powerplays it be to Pens fans if a guy like those evolver mentioned knocks Crosby or Malkin into next week with a cheap shot that causes him to miss several games?

 

[banditshcky11]

I find it ironic that Stewart singles out a high skill player like Neal for his lack of on ice sportsmanship, which by the way is 100% true and I am in no way defending, yet the league on a whole is littered with low skill, dirty hooligans like a Sestito, Rinaldo, Carcillo, Scott, Orr, Downie, Dorsett, Cooke and Carkner etc. Every one of the previous elicit and encourage the type of behavior that Neal crosses the line with. They do it for the proverbial hockey tactic of 'getting under the opponent's skin' to draw a retaliatory penalty.

My question then is this.. if you don't want the random cheap shot and retaliatory penalties that are pretty regular and generally occur night in and night out across the league, then why are guys like the ones I've mentioned here still collecting paychecks in the NHL?

You reap what you sow. If the NHL was serious about protecting the players on the ice, then they would encourage their franchises to pay the skill players and cut the low skill beer league hacks. This doesn't even get into the other elephant in the room which is the role of the enforcer...

Are we really surprised that the NHL makes a mockery of their punishment and player safety reviews when there are guys being paid to incite this very behavior?

I get what you're trying to say, however the players you listed are all on a very short leash when it comes to disciplinary actions. There are also some players who were once considered dirty goons who have cleaned their act up. I can't speak for the whole league but none of Downie, Rosehill or Rinaldo have done anything worse then getting an arm and sometimes elbow up on a check all season and that's been rare. Rinaldo is actually what I think the next generation of agitator is going to be a high energy, very physical guy who gets under your skin. Now back to Neal or any skilled player, the league just gives them more leeway because those players are known more for offensive output then participation in scrims or the agitating part of the game. It all come down to perception honestly. I feel Neal needs a lengthy suspension before he hurts someone and it could serve as a deteriant as such to other players.

 

[awaz]

That's no different than the Matt Cooke/Raffi Torres discussions though. How long has to pass before you can reasonably argue a guy has cleaned up his game?

oh ya, i'm not gunna say that either of them should be labeled clean players by any means. i just mean to say that that role can be played, on the right side of the line, and be an effective position in the NHL, without injuring opponents with cheap hits

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

The difficulty too is that some of these scumbags are getting to be pretty good at the hockey aspect of the game too, and not just as enforcers. Downie had over 20 goals one year with TBL. Even Cooke can play decent hockey when he gets his head out of his ass.

And what do you do with a scumbag like Dustin Brown (I'm not picking on him just because you're a Kings fan, I just think he's one of the biggest scumbags in the league but gets off easy because of the superstar slot on the Wheel)? No question the guy can play hockey, but we could put together a "greatest hits" compilation that would rival a lot of those other guys (or Kneel).