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Ongoing NHL thread - Part deux

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DragonfromTO

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At this point I'd say Boudreau has to be fired because, fuck, you gotta do something, I would find it comical that a team that gets paid $70 million collectively, mostly with pretty good offensive reputations, are this inept because they think the coach is mean. At this point I'd be threatening everyone without NTC's with trades to Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Personally I think that this is how a lot of mistakes get made.
 

dash

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Personally I think that this is how a lot of mistakes get made.

I agree with this, I mean some Flames "fans" are already calling for Hartley's head. Really? Obviously, the surprise of making the playoffs last year and winning a round raised fans expectations, but the bottom line is that this team is still in a re-build and the key words are still patience and prudence.

/Now watch a blockbuster trade happen in the next 72 hours :D
 

KennyBanyeah

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I agree with this, I mean some Flames "fans" are already calling for Hartley's head. Really? Obviously, the surprise of making the playoffs last year and winning a round raised fans expectations, but the bottom line is that this team is still in a re-build and the key words are still patience and prudence.

/Now watch a blockbuster trade happen in the next 72 hours :D


I agree. The Flames are still a young team.

Kinda feel like I'm talking about my team here.

Tomorrow's game has the potential to be hard to watch dash. That's two teams playing some pretty fugly hockey.
 

dash

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I agree. The Flames are still a young team.

Kinda feel like I'm talking about my team here.

Tomorrow's game has the potential to be hard to watch dash. That's two teams playing some pretty fugly hockey.

National broadcast as well, Kenny.
 

dash

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Is Paul Romanuk calling the game? I've got a public transportation square on my Romanuk bingo card as well a WTF? square.

I think it will be Dave Randorf and likely Gary Galley as the colo(u)r analyst as he does a lot of Sens games.
 

forty_three

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Personally I think that this is how a lot of mistakes get made.

John? Yeah. Jarmo. Listen, I need to you to explain the definition of a word I just heard. "mistake". What do you mean, 'what context'?
Jarmo_Kekalainen_St._Louis_01.jpg

I agree with this, I mean some Flames "fans" are already calling for Hartley's head. Really? Obviously, the surprise of making the playoffs last year and winning a round raised fans expectations, but the bottom line is that this team is still in a re-build and the key words are still patience and prudence.

/Now watch a blockbuster trade happen in the next 72 hours :D

The Jackets fans were direct opposite. They thought Richard did a fine job despite injuries and the run at the end was proof of his ability. In reality, he lost the team early in the season and had no plan to get it back. He benefited from decent play which masked his weaknesses, ala Disco Dan. And the coach pickings were a lot less slim last January.

What I don't get is why the organization pays a guy to be associate coach and then when the shit hits the fan just usurp him. This team had it's pride hurt, they liked Richards personally so him getting fired was probably enough of a slap in the face to wake them up. Hartsburg could have tried to level the plane a bit and if it still nosedived, THEN go ahead.

Some decent coaches might be on the market soon. Jarmo just shot the flare too fast.
 

dash

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I heard the other day that 23 coaches have been fired since 2013. All but 6 teams have made the playoffs since 2013.

Maybe coaches just don't matter as much as we think?

Do good coaches make good players or do good players make good coaches? Scotty Bowman was a heck of a coach, but he also had some great players in Montreal, Pittsburgh and Detroit (not so much in Buffalo). I think coach Q was a pretty good coach before he got hired by Chicago, now with three Cup wins, he's punched his ticket to the HHOF. Ken Hitchcock won a Cup in Dallas, yet can't replicate that success in St. Louis. Did he suddenly become a bad coach?
 

KennyBanyeah

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Do good coaches make good players or do good players make good coaches? Scotty Bowman was a heck of a coach, but he also had some great players in Montreal, Pittsburgh and Detroit (not so much in Buffalo). I think coach Q was a pretty good coach before he got hired by Chicago, now with three Cup wins, he's punched his ticket to the HHOF. Ken Hitchcock won a Cup in Dallas, yet can't replicate that success in St. Louis. Did he suddenly become a bad coach?

It's all about having talented players and not messing them up. At least as far as winning a championship goes. Jacques Martin made great strides with a young Ottawa team by being a systems guy. He made them a playoff team. That being said I'd hire almost anyone ahead of him to put a team over the top.

Mike Babcock was able to take the talented Wings over the top; so far he's not having much of a positive impact on a Toronto team made up primarily of spare parts. I think he probably will as early as next year, but he might not be a great teacher. Time will tell.

At the end of the day the coach has to get the most (or close to it) out of his players. If his players are led by the likes of Tyler Bozak, Frank Musil, Shaun Van Allen or Dion Phaneuf the coach can get all he wants out of that player but he's not winning anything.
 

Bloody Brian Burke

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Do good coaches make good players or do good players make good coaches? Scotty Bowman was a heck of a coach, but he also had some great players in Montreal, Pittsburgh and Detroit (not so much in Buffalo). I think coach Q was a pretty good coach before he got hired by Chicago, now with three Cup wins, he's punched his ticket to the HHOF. Ken Hitchcock won a Cup in Dallas, yet can't replicate that success in St. Louis. Did he suddenly become a bad coach?
My team is paying one $50 million so there had better be good coaches.

I think it's a mix. The hockey world is littered with coaches who had a good season or two then never could get back to that holiest of places, alongside guys who have gone to 3 or 4 places and managed to at least stay competitive. If you combine a somewhat competent coach with a good roster you'll get results.
 

pixburgher66

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Boudreau in Pittsburgh still seems inevitable. But the team is 4-1 after starting 0-3. Soooooo...? We'll see, scoring is obviously a struggle, but it's clearly a league wide issue too. Look at some of those big name offensive players. Only team with big talent that's scoring tons is Washington and the Habs (although before this season I wouldn't have predicted they'd be leading scoring); Isles aren't really struggling either. Ducks and Pens are really struggling obviously, Hawks only marginally better than those two. Kings are leading their division but are 25th in scoring. Sid's goal was PP, Toews' two goals were on 3 on 3. Then of course you have Jamie Benn, who seems wholly unaffected, so who knows. All I know is I could take a mediocre record if my team was entertaining...they are NOT.
 

Bloody Brian Burke

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It's all about having talented players and not messing them up. At least as far as winning a championship goes. Jacques Martin made great strides with a young Ottawa team by being a systems guy. He made them a playoff team. That being said I'd hire almost anyone ahead of him to put a team over the top.

Mike Babcock was able to take the talented Wings over the top; so far he's not having much of a positive impact on a Toronto team made up primarily of spare parts. I think he probably will as early as next year, but he might not be a great teacher. Time will tell.

At the end of the day the coach has to get the most (or close to it) out of his players. If his players are led by the likes of Tyler Bozak, Frank Musil, Shaun Van Allen or Dion Phaneuf the coach can get all he wants out of that player but he's not winning anything.
Babs is having a pretty decent impact thus far. SSS but Leafs have gone from 22nd in shots per game to 3rd and from 29th in shots against per game to 9th. This despite trading away pretty much the only person on the team who can score (thus the lack of goals from this increased shot differential). He can't do much about the fact there are no scorers on the team and the goalies are sieves.

To be frank, the difference he has made thus far is quite remarkable and a good argument against the "coaches are meaningless" lesson I was preaching ten minutes ago.
 

DragonfromTO

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Do good coaches make good players or do good players make good coaches? Scotty Bowman was a heck of a coach, but he also had some great players in Montreal, Pittsburgh and Detroit (not so much in Buffalo). I think coach Q was a pretty good coach before he got hired by Chicago, now with three Cup wins, he's punched his ticket to the HHOF. Ken Hitchcock won a Cup in Dallas, yet can't replicate that success in St. Louis. Did he suddenly become a bad coach?

I honestly haven't looked closely enough at St. Louis to say either way. But that's certainly possible, no? This game and what it it takes to win at it are constantly changing (especially now with so much more data available to everyone), and being able to adjust is incredibly important while not being able to is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not saying that's specifically what's happened with Hitchcock, but it's a possible scenario for situation where a coach is no longer getting the results that he used to.
 

DragonfromTO

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It's all about having talented players and not messing them up. At least as far as winning a championship goes. Jacques Martin made great strides with a young Ottawa team by being a systems guy. He made them a playoff team. That being said I'd hire almost anyone ahead of him to put a team over the top.

Mike Babcock was able to take the talented Wings over the top; so far he's not having much of a positive impact on a Toronto team made up primarily of spare parts. I think he probably will as early as next year, but he might not be a great teacher. Time will tell.

At the end of the day the coach has to get the most (or close to it) out of his players. If his players are led by the likes of Tyler Bozak, Frank Musil, Shaun Van Allen or Dion Phaneuf the coach can get all he wants out of that player but he's not winning anything.

I disagree. I like almost everything I've seen so far.

The problem is that everyone focuses entirely on record. Team has a 5 game winning streak and they're great, team plays exactly the same but loses the next 5 and suddenly they're shit. Obscuring the reality that they've been the same team for all 10 games.
 

dash

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I honestly haven't looked closely enough at St. Louis to say either way. But that's certainly possible, no? This game and what it it takes to win at it are constantly changing (especially now with so much more data available to everyone), and being able to adjust is incredibly important while not being able to is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not saying that's specifically what's happened with Hitchcock, but it's a possible scenario.

I think you definitely have to adapt and change not only on-ice strategies, but how you handle players both on and off the ice. Those that can adapt are likely to remain employed while those that can't get hired by the Blue Jackets.
 

forty_three

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It's all about having talented players and not messing them up. At least as far as winning a championship goes. Jacques Martin made great strides with a young Ottawa team by being a systems guy. He made them a playoff team. That being said I'd hire almost anyone ahead of him to put a team over the top.

Mike Babcock was able to take the talented Wings over the top; so far he's not having much of a positive impact on a Toronto team made up primarily of spare parts. I think he probably will as early as next year, but he might not be a great teacher. Time will tell.

At the end of the day the coach has to get the most (or close to it) out of his players. If his players are led by the likes of Tyler Bozak, Frank Musil, Shaun Van Allen or Dion Phaneuf the coach can get all he wants out of that player but he's not winning anything.

Good coaches make the best of what they have. A good coach evaluates what he has in his arsenal, knows what his players are capable of and develops a team plan that allows everyone to contribute to the best of their abilities while pushing them to give more. A good coach can develop a young guy and make him more than he expects. Sometimes those coaches have a lot to work with, sometimes they don't.

Scotty Bowman. Pat Burns. Herb Brooks. Al Arbour. Fred Shero.

A bad coach has a pre-conceived notion of what a team should do, is inflexible in his system but expects his players to be flexible in their game to fit it. A bad coach sees players as components, replaceable pieces. A bad coach is a dictator. A bad coach is incapable of explaining in ways everyone understands what he expects. A bad coach has one fall back plan. A bad coach puts himself in the spotlight, not his players.
 

pixburgher66

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The expectations with Babs were way too high. I'm not talking about only the Toronto area either. I think most people in the area aren't shocked with the record, but people pinning it on the coach are batty. I still don't fully understand why Babcock has the sterling reputation that he does in comparison to a few others and it makes those expectations ridiculous and unobtainable. Coaches can have an impact, but it's so marginal in comparison to what the players do.
 
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