Ongoing NHL thread - Part deux

[Cobiemonster]

What can they do at this point? They have a couple defencemen who look promising, and moving just one of them isn't going to net them the return they need to cure what's hurting the team. There's significant money coming off the books but the UFA crop this summer is rubbish.

Short of cashing in on Crosby or Malkin, I don't see what can be done to make this team a contender again.

This is what I'm thinking

They pretty much overhauled the roster sans the 3 or 4 players who have been on the team year after year and it still doesn't work - I know they need a way better coach and a better GM but you start to wonder now if maybe one of the big time players need to go - it has been a while with them there

 

[evolver115]

What can they do at this point? They have a couple defencemen who look promising, and moving just one of them isn't going to net them the return they need to cure what's hurting the team. There's significant money coming off the books but the UFA crop this summer is rubbish.

Short of cashing in on Crosby or Malkin, I don't see what can be done to make this team a contender again.

Things change so quickly in the NHL, these days. I don't see them contending for the cup this year, obviously... but I don't think they're far away from being competitive again. Olli Maatta will be back next season, and his loss this year has made a pretty significant impact, as they were counting on him to be a top four. Pouliot will be another year older, and he's shown flashes of being something special. Their top four on defense next season could end up being a very solid group, and a very inexpensive group, overall. Dumoulin and Harrington are expected to make the jump next season, and those two have been great for Wilkes-Barre. They have a bunch of money coming off the books (almost 10 million between Martin and Ehrhoff). Rutherford will be given some room to make some changes.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Things change so quickly in the NHL, these days. I don't see them contending for the cup this year, obviously... but I don't think they're far away from being competitive again. Olli Maatta will be back next season, and his loss this year has made a pretty significant impact, as they were counting on him to be a top four. Pouliot will be another year older, and he's shown flashes of being something special. Their top four on defense next season could end up being a very solid group, and a very inexpensive group, overall. Dumoulin and Harrington are expected to make the jump next season, and those two have been great for Wilkes-Barre. They have a bunch of money coming off the books (almost 10 million between Martin and Ehrhoff). Rutherford will be given some room to make some changes.

Isn't the Pens' problems more of a goal-scoring nature? What's Pouliot and Maatta going to do to help that?

Like I said, they have promising young d-men that they will have to dangle for offensive help, and they aren't going to get a Patrick Kane-type player or anything resembling one in exchange for what they have to offer. And every playoffs where we say "the Pens can become a contender again pretty quickly" is just another year of Malkin and Crosby wasted.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

This is what I'm thinking

They pretty much overhauled the roster sans the 3 or 4 players who have been on the team year after year and it still doesn't work - I know they need a way better coach and a better GM but you start to wonder now if maybe one of the big time players need to go - it has been a while with them there

I don't think this is an underachieving roster because I don't have high expectations from this roster. In order to build a roster with high expectations someone is going to have to come in and convince ownership to think outside the box for the first time in a decade. It's a hard thing to do, but it will become much harder if your star players start asking out and your fanbase turns on you.

 

[evolver115]

Isn't the Pens' problems more of a goal-scoring nature? What's Pouliot and Maatta going to do to help that?

A lot, actually. Do you think it is just a coincidence that guys like Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty and Zdeno Chara are among the past five cup winners? Stanley cup teams since the last full lockout seem to have at least one top D-man in their top 4. Keith and Doughty were clutch for the Hawks and Kings in their recent post-season runs, and Chara for Boston had a Norris trophy caliber season in '11.

This is the first time in a while that the Pens haven't been in the top 5 on the power play. Maatta was expected to be a part of that first unit, and I think with him returning to the lineup next year will help get them back to that success. I also think Pouliot will be a key part of their powerplay in the short-term future.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

A lot, actually. Do you think it is just a coincidence that guys like Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty and Zdeno Chara are among the past five cup winners? Stanley cup teams since the last full lockout seem to have at least one top D-man in their top 4. Keith and Doughty were clutch for the Hawks and Kings in their recent post-season runs, and Chara for Boston had a Norris trophy caliber season in '11.

This is the first time in a while that the Pens haven't been in the top 5 on the power play. Maatta was expected to be a part of that first unit, and I think with him returning to the lineup next year will help get them back to that success. I also think Pouliot will be a key part of their powerplay in the short-term future.

Good defence is a good start, but you need to score goals and when Crosby is playing alongside guys who would be 2nd or 3rd liners on the past 3 Cup-winning teams I'm at a loss as to where the goals are going to come from. You can say the Pens don't have a Keith or Doughty or Macdonagh or Chara but they don't have a Carter or Kane or Hossa or Nash, either. Being strong defensively is important, but that isn't a good formula for winning when the opposing defence only has to worry about one explosive threat per line.

 

[evolver115]

Good defence is a good start, but you need to score goals and when Crosby is playing alongside guys who would be 2nd or 3rd liners on the past 3 Cup-winning teams I'm at a loss as to where the goals are going to come from. You can say the Pens don't have a Keith or Doughty or Macdonagh or Chara but they don't have a Carter or Kane or Hossa or Nash, either. Being strong defensively is important, but that isn't a good formula for winning when the opposing defence only has to worry about one explosive threat per line.

That's today's NHL, though. The Hawks had the luxury of having Toews and Kane on entry level and first pro contracts. That all ends for them this off-season when their combine cap hit number goes from 12 to 20 million. They will likely have to move a Sharp or a Hossa because they won't fit into their cap structure.

The Pens actually do have an opportunity to retool their wings this offseason because Martin and Ehrhoff are likely to be gone for next season. That is going to free up just shy of 10 million dollars in cap, and they likely have guys who will replace them in their lineup in Maatta and Pouliot, going forward. It's not quite as dire as you make it to be.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

That's today's NHL, though. The Hawks had the luxury of having Toews and Kane on entry level and first pro contracts. That all ends for them this off-season. They will likely have to move a Sharp or a Hossa because they won't fit into their cap structure.

The Pens actually do have an opportunity to retool their wings this offseason because Martin and Ehrhoff are likely to be gone for next season. That is going to free up just shy of 10 million dollars in cap, and they likely have guys who will replace them in their lineup in Maatta and Pouliot, going forward. It's not quite a dire as you make it to be.

Like I said, the UFA class is garbage - Martin St. Louis is probably the best winger available, with Jagr second up. That's just god-awful, and it means if the Pens want to upgrade, they're going to have to trade. Who are they going to trade for good scoring wingers? The defencemen you just named?

I know you want to see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm failing to see how it can be anything other than a speeding freight train.

 

[evolver115]

Like I said, the UFA class is garbage - Martin St. Louis is probably the best winger available, with Jagr second up. That's just god-awful, and it means if the Pens want to upgrade, they're going to have to trade. Who are they going to trade for good scoring wingers? The defencemen you just named?

I know you want to see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm failing to see how it can be anything other than a speeding freight train.

I'm not going to speculate trades, but there are pieces (goalies,defensemen) in the Penguins minor leagues that could be moved if it were necessary. I'm not down on their wings going forward, tbh. Hornqvist and Perron will be back next season. Pascal Dupuis is hopefully to be returned from bloodclots, as well. I had my doubts of him ever playing again, but Timmonen's return to action has me hopeful. If Dupuis is back for 2015-16, that leaves just one more wing to fill out the top six. Like I said, not quite as dire as you make it seem. It's a cap league, and every contending team has to deal with the same basic problem.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I'm not going to speculate trades, but there are pieces (goalies,defensemen) in the Penguins minor leagues that could be moved if it were necessary. I'm not down on their wings going forward, tbh. Hornqvist and Perron will be back next season. Pascal Dupuis is hopefully to be returned from bloodclots, as well. I had my doubts of him ever playing again, but Timmonen's return to action has me hopeful. If Dupuis is back for 2015-16, that leaves just one more wing to fill out the top six. Like I said, not quite as dire as you make it seem. It's a cap league, and every contending team has to deal with the same basic problem.

Yes, but we're not talking about a contending team, we're talking about the Pens.

If you're not down on their wings, okay then. I'm not going to convince you otherwise. I just have a hard time believing that the answer to the Pens' wing problems is a career 40 points-per-season player who will be 36 tomorrow and will be coming back from blood clots, a 50 points-per-season player who they currently have active on the roster and has produced only 23 points since Dec. 1, and David Perron.

While not speculating on trades, I'm still wondering where you see this value in the Pens' system that is going to get them help other than the guys you just mentioned that they obviously intend to hold on to. Nobody is trading stars for goaltending prospects these days.

I understand that you want to believe your team is on the right path, but I think you'd have a hard time finding many neutral observers to concur with that assessment.

 

[evolver115]

Yes, but we're not talking about a contending team, we're talking about the Pens.

If you're not down on their wings, okay then. I'm not going to convince you otherwise. I just have a hard time believing that the answer to the Pens' wing problems is a career 40 points-per-season player who will be 36 tomorrow and will be coming back from blood clots, a 50 points-per-season player who they currently have active on the roster and has produced only 23 points since Dec. 1, and David Perron.

While not speculating on trades, I'm still wondering where you see this value in the Pens' system that is going to get them help other than the guys you just mentioned that they obviously intend to hold on to. Nobody is trading stars for goaltending prospects these days.

I understand that you want to believe your team is on the right path, but I think you'd have a hard time finding many neutral observers to concur with that assessment.

You can take a snarky attitude about it, and maybe that is due to the team you have allegiance to. Like I said way back at the beginning of this discussion, things change quickly in the NHL. As bad as a situation may look today, it can change just that quickly by next season. Heck, a month and a half ago Ottawa was left for dead, and lo and behold, they're now a lucky bounce away from snatching the eighth seed from the Pens/Wings/Bruins. Point being; you're never quite as bad as you look at the low point, and never quite as good at the high point.

I have hope for the Penguins going forward because they have quality and inexpensive depth in their defensive core. Maatta and Pouliot will be legit top four for them in the coming seasons. Dumoulin and Harrington are expected to make the jump to the NHL as soon as next season. They also have two young forwards that were picked up in the past two drafts who they're very high on in Sundqvist and Kapanen. Who knows what the future holds for them? Kapanen just barely missed making this current team on the last few days of camp. They have high hopes for him in the future. Maybe he ends up being that top six winger next season, and that 36 year old winger can join the bottom six. I'd take Dupuis on a third or fourth line any day.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Like I said way back at the beginning of this discussion, things change quickly in the NHL. As bad as a situation may look today, it can change just that quickly by next season. Heck, a month and a half ago Ottawa was left for dead, and lo and behold, they're now a lucky bounce away from snatching the eighth seed from the Pens/Wings/Bruins. Point being; you're never quite as bad as you look at the low point, and never quite as good at the high point.

I have hope for the Penguins going forward because they have quality and inexpensive depth in their defensive core. Maatta and Pouliot will be legit top four for them in the coming seasons. Dumoulin and Harrington are expected to make the jump to the NHL as soon as next season. They also have two young forwards that were picked up in the past two drafts who they're very high on in Sundqvist and Kapanen. Who knows what the future holds for them? Kapanen just barely missed making this current team on the last few days of camp. They have high hopes for him in the future.

Ottawa's got a hot goalie and rode him. Some of their youngsters have looked good, too, but that is basically what it comes down to. The Wild were garbage before Dubnyk showed up. That's luck, not a formula for success, and of course PIT could get lucky but why the hell are you relying on luck when you have Crosby and Malkin in the fold?

You can take a snarky attitude about it, and maybe that is due to the team you have allegiance to.

Which has what, exactly, to do with this? I'm being snarky because you keep repeating "cap space and youngsters" while not acknowledging that the UFA class is crap and relying on prospects for a team that has two of the best players in the world in their prime isn't exactly the best strategy to use, not to mention isn't exactly one that team management planned to rely on given that they traded their first rounder for David Perron and next year's second rounder for Daniel Winnik.

Like I said, not trying to convince you otherwise, just stating it's a rather narrow view of a team most see as in need of something radical to get them back to where they were 6 years ago. I can only imagine what Crosby's reaction would be to Rutherford telling him "We're going to wait 2 or 3 years for our prospects to develop".

 

[evolver115]

Ottawa's got a hot goalie and rode him. Some of their youngsters have looked good, too, but that is basically what it comes down to. The Wild were garbage before Dubnyk showed up. That's luck, not a formula for success, and of course PIT could get lucky but why the hell are you relying on luck when you have Crosby and Malkin in the fold?

Luck, unfortunately holds a lot of sway in the NHL these days. With a cap league, games usually come down to a couple of lucky bounces. It's the nature of having 20 some teams each and every year neck and neck in quality of competition. There just isn't that much separation between a 1 seed and and 8 seed. See: Kings - 2014.

Which has what, exactly, to do with this? I'm being snarky because you keep repeating "cap space and youngsters" while not acknowledging that the UFA class is crap and relying on prospects for a team that has two of the best players in the world in their prime isn't exactly the best strategy to use, not to mention isn't exactly one that team management planned to rely on given that they traded their first rounder for David Perron and next year's second rounder for Daniel Winnik. Like I said, not trying to convince you otherwise, just stating it's a rather narrow view of a team most see as in need of something radical to get them back to where they were 6 years ago. I can only imagine what Crosby's reaction would be to Rutherford telling him "We're going to wait 2 or 3 years for our prospects to develop".

The point is you've been watching/following quite possibly one of the worst run teams in the NHL, and watching that much fail tends to sour your outlook regarding hope for the future. People are quick to say, "but they've had Crosby and Malkin, shouldn't they have more cups?"

If only it were that easy.

Like I said above, luck really has a lot to do with it. Luck with things like staying healthy. I challenge you to cite a team whose suffered more unlucky injuries than the Pens have for the past 5+ seasons. Crosby has missed a season and a half worth of games in the past five years. Malkin missed a half of a season with an ACL, and a bunch of other injuries have robbed him of games for a myriad of reasons, since. Those two injuries right there occurred during their prime. Letang has dealt with now four reported concussions. And his absence right now is quite possibly going to end their season. Such is life.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Luck, unfortunately holds a lot of sway in the NHL these days. With a cap league, games usually come down to a couple of lucky bounces. It's the nature of having 20 some teams each and every year neck and neck in quality of competition. There just isn't that much separation between a 1 seed and and 8 seed. See: Kings - 2014.

If only it were that easy.

Like I said above, luck really has a lot to do with it. Luck with things like staying healthy. I challenge you to cite a team whose suffered more unlucky injuries than the Pens have for the past 5+ seasons. Crosby has missed a season and a half worth of games in the past five years. Malkin missed a half of a season with an ACL, and a bunch of other injuries have robbed him of games for a myriad of reasons, since. Those two injuries right there occurred during their prime. Letang has dealt with now four reported concussions. And his absence right now is quite possibly going to end their season. Such is life.

I don't understand the Kings reference - you mean in 2012?

I understand the injuries, but the roster isn't very good to begin with. Most writers had the Pens at best as the 4th or 5th best team in the east before the season - obviously not terrible, but essentially expecting them to do no better than they did last season in which it became painfully clear the team wasn't nearly good enough to contend.

The point is you've been watching/following quite possibly one of the worst run teams in the NHL, and watching that much fail tends to sour your outlook regarding hope for the future. People are quick to say, "but they've had Crosby and Malkin, shouldn't they have more cups?"

That's bullshit on every level. I'm simply wondering what the next step is for the Pens. I don't get pissy about other teams doing good simply because my team sucks - I had high hopes that the Jackets would be entertaining this season (and they sure have been as of late), and have said the Isles should pursue trading for a star winger to put with JT given the embarrassment of riches they have in the prospect pool. I also never said anything close to "but they've had Crosby and Malkin, shouldn't they have more cups?", but rather that it makes no sense to have two of the best and waste their best years not icing a competitive roster. There's simply no logic to it.

 

[Comeds]

 

[evolver115]

I don't understand the Kings reference - you mean in 2012?

I understand the injuries, but the roster isn't very good to begin with. Most writers had the Pens at best as the 4th or 5th best team in the east before the season - obviously not terrible, but essentially expecting them to do no better than they did last season in which it became painfully clear the team wasn't nearly good enough to contend.

Yep, meant 2012, not 14.

I wouldn't say not nearly good enough. they went seven games and lost to a generational goalie in the semi-finals who went on to the SCF's. It happens. It comes down to inches, and they came up just a few short.

That's bullshit on every level. I'm simply wondering what the next step is for the Pens. I don't get pissy about other teams doing good simply because my team sucks - I had high hopes that the Jackets would be entertaining this season (and they sure have been as of late), and have said the Isles should pursue trading for a star winger to put with JT given the embarrassment of riches they have in the prospect pool. I also never said anything close to "but they've had Crosby and Malkin, shouldn't they have more cups?", but rather that it makes no sense to have two of the best and waste their best years not icing a competitive roster. There's simply no logic to it.

So what would you suggest? Got any ideas about what they've dealt with regarding injuries during Sid and Geno's primes and how they've attempted to handle them? Any input on how exactly you would fill out the roster differently as opposed to how Rutherford has for this season? This all just sounds like empty platitudes to me.

 

[evolver115]

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Yep, meant 2012, not 14.

I wouldn't say not nearly good enough. they went seven games and lost to a generational goalie in the semi-finals who went on to the SCF's. It happens. It comes down to inches, and they came up just a few short.



So what would you suggest? Got any ideas about what they've dealt with regarding injuries during Sid and Geno's primes and how they've attempted to handle them? Any input on how exactly you would fill out the roster differently as opposed to how Rutherford has for this season? This all just sounds like empty platitudes to me.

It was an observation, not an offer to help or an idiot fan saying he could do a better job. Simply stating that there are teams in the league who look to have a promising future and the Pens' doesn't look so promising right now. Fuck, they could turn a 6th round pick into the next Zetterberg this summer and be scary as shit. Just saying right now, not so much.

And given Rutherford's track record in the past 7 or 8 years, I don't think any questioning of how he's built his roster is out of line.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

End of season honours...and McDavid - Article - TSN

Good post by Bob on who polled coaches think will win awards.

 

[evolver115]

It was an observation, not an offer to help or an idiot fan saying he could do a better job.

And given Rutherford's track record in the past 7 or 8 years, I don't think any questioning of how he's built his roster is out of line.

Just having two of the best doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot in a cap league. For every one or two successes, like reaching back to back SCF's, there's also plenty of room for five or six failures. That's the nature of competing in a cap league. You can't fortify generational players with all-stars and future HOF'ers because the money just isn't there to allow it. I'm disappointed in this season, but that's the nature of professional sports, especially in a league with a cap.

I still think that they have hope for the next couple of seasons. As I've said, they have quality depth in their defense, and that depth can help save them cap space to maybe fortify their centers with quality wings in the future.