Ongoing NHL thread - Part deux

[IndyAndy]

Does tanking bother people that badly? ... I think people are accusing teams of purposely being bad when I'm reality they were just poorly run.

This.

Has there ever been a case where it has been the STATED POLICY of a team that "We're tanking this season (or at least the rest of it) in order to get a better draft pick"? I would think that the public/fan backlash would be tremendously bad.

 

[mattola]

Does tanking bother people that badly?

Only when it's the oilers

 

[forty_three]

Does tanking bother people that badly? At most it's two or three teams a season that don't create a roster capable of being competitive, and often times it winds up happening in-season - as dumb as it sounds now, all of Toronto, Edmonton and Arizona expected to be competitive this season, while Buffalo expected to be competitive as recently as the start of last season before realizing they need to blow it the fuck up. I think people are accusing teams of purposely being bad when I'm reality they were just poorly run.

The NHL values the integrity of the competition (at least they claim to)above all else, so to that end they should want all teams to compete to the best of their ability every night. Every fan should have some level of issue with tanking.

Especially in light of the wild card format. Suppose you are a fan of a team that is fighting for a wild card spot. And the team that is battling your team the hardest is in a division with two teams that are tanking hard. That other team is going to have an easier route to the playoffs. And some of the less rich teams, a playoff series can be of immeasurable value.

I would really hate for a team to face financial hardship, which makes it hard to compete long term, because they didn't make the playoffs because someone else got to play Buffatank and Tankronto for 16 games...

The non playoff teams should all get the same chance at first overall. Period. Everyone gets one ball in the lottery machine. Order is chosen that way. First ball chosen picks 14th, and all the way down to first overall.

Imagine if a team like Boston *barely* misses the playoffs and they get McDavid. Dynasties can be built.

And the next Generational talent doesn't get wasted in a purgatory with terrible management. Overall, for the league, that could be better.

 

[Cobiemonster]

The NHL values the integrity of the competition (at least they claim to)above all else, so to that end they should want all teams to compete to the best of their ability every night. Every fan should have some level of issue with tanking.

Especially in light of the wild card format. Suppose you are a fan of a team that is fighting for a wild card spot. And the team that is battling your team the hardest is in a division with two teams that are tanking hard. That other team is going to have an easier route to the playoffs. And some of the less rich teams, a playoff series can be of immeasurable value.

I would really hate for a team to face financial hardship, which makes it hard to compete long term, because they didn't make the playoffs because someone else got to play Buffatank and Tankronto for 16 games...

The non playoff teams should all get the same chance at first overall. Period. Everyone gets one ball in the lottery machine. Order is chosen that way. First ball chosen picks 14th, and all the way down to first overall.

Imagine if a team like Boston *barely* misses the playoffs and they get McDavid. Dynasties can be built.

And the next Generational talent doesn't get wasted in a purgatory with terrible management. Overall, for the league, that could be better.

You're right on a lot of points, but also, what if a team that is just genuinely ran bad and isn't trying to tank, ends up not getting that first overall pick while a team like Boston could? Does that seem fair, too? I think there's a level where yes, some alterations of the draft lottery could be made, but I think a team like Boston getting that pick would also be going a bit too far

 

[esls79]

I think the non playoff team with the most wins against playoffs teams should get the first overall pick as well as an extra win in the bank the following year.

This way, the integrity of the games stays intact for the most part, except when you get epic tank offs like Edmonton vs Buffalo this season.

 

[puckhead]

wait, what?
way to go Sven, I guess.

 

[DevilishWon]

This.

Has there ever been a case where it has been the STATED POLICY of a team that "We're tanking this season (or at least the rest of it) in order to get a better draft pick"? I would think that the public/fan backlash would be tremendously bad.

They can't publicly announce it, but some sure as hell have. Take a little historical look at the what the pens did to get lemeiux

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

This.

Has there ever been a case where it has been the STATED POLICY of a team that "We're tanking this season (or at least the rest of it) in order to get a better draft pick"? I would think that the public/fan backlash would be tremendously bad.

I mean, I think Buffalo had every intention of going down the drain this season. I think Colorado a couple years ago when they drafted Mackinnon made very little effort to be competitive. It happens, but it's not so widespread that it affects the level of competition on its own - usually, these teams that bottom-feed would be bad regardless of whether or not they are stripping away their better assets.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The NHL values the integrity of the competition (at least they claim to)above all else, so to that end they should want all teams to compete to the best of their ability every night. Every fan should have some level of issue with tanking.

Especially in light of the wild card format. Suppose you are a fan of a team that is fighting for a wild card spot. And the team that is battling your team the hardest is in a division with two teams that are tanking hard. That other team is going to have an easier route to the playoffs. And some of the less rich teams, a playoff series can be of immeasurable value.

I would really hate for a team to face financial hardship, which makes it hard to compete long term, because they didn't make the playoffs because someone else got to play Buffatank and Tankronto for 16 games...

The non playoff teams should all get the same chance at first overall. Period. Everyone gets one ball in the lottery machine. Order is chosen that way. First ball chosen picks 14th, and all the way down to first overall.

Imagine if a team like Boston *barely* misses the playoffs and they get McDavid. Dynasties can be built.

And the next Generational talent doesn't get wasted in a purgatory with terrible management. Overall, for the league, that could be better.

Like I said, entering this season the only team people agreed were actively making an effort to stink was Buffalo. Edmonton, Toronto and Arizona all believed they could be competitive and only began flooring out after games had been played, and of those three teams only Arizona has offloaded some of their best players to date.

I should point out that no team plays another team more than 5 times, and just doing a quick look at their results Buffalo has taken its fair share of points against the Isles, Panthers, Capitals, Tampa and Montreal this season. Record means nothing - any NHL game has 50-50 odds. If your team misses the playoffs it's because they weren't good enough to play in them, not because other teams had to play the exact same teams you had to play.

 

[evolver115]

They can't publicly announce it, but some sure as hell have. Take a little historical look at the what the pens did to get lemeiux

The coach at the time admitted to making roster moves to weaken the team. They traded Carlyle for a 1st at the trade deadline, and demoted a young goalie who was playing all right. That's about as far as it went. The players on the team weren't going out there with the idea of giving less than one hundred percent in order to lose. They were just a crap hockey team.

The NHL 30 years ago was a mickey mouse organization. The story of how Wayne Gretzky ended up with the Edmonton Oilers had its own checkered side to it. He played for the Oilers in the WHA up until the time of the NHL-WHA merger, and under the merger agreement the WHA players were supposed to be released by their teams and eligible for selection in the 1979 NHL draft. But Gretzky was playing under the terms of a very unusual contract at the time -- it was a personal services contract with Oilers' owner Peter Pocklington rather than a standard WHA player contract. He refused to terminate his contract, and since the NHL wanted to avoid disrupting the merger they didn't put up a fight over it. Instead, they reached an accommodation with the Oilers under which Edmonton was allowed to keep Gretzky but was dropped to the bottom of the draft order in 1979. So the Oil essentially stole arguably the greatest player of all time with some backroom shenanigans.

It just goes to show what was reality in professional sports 30 years ago. This whole self-righteous line of thinking that always gets bandied about when the discussion of the Penguins tanking for Lemieux 30 years ago I find kind of funny. The league back then is completely different than it is today.

 

[dare2be]

The coach at the time admitted to making roster moves to weaken the team. They traded Carlyle for a 1st at the trade deadline, and demoted a young goalie who was playing all right. That's about as far as it went. The players on the team weren't going out there with the idea of giving less than one hundred percent in order to lose. They were just a crap hockey team.

The NHL 30 years ago was a mickey mouse organization. The story of how Wayne Gretzky ended up with the Edmonton Oilers had its own checkered side to it. He played for the Oilers in the WHA up until the time of the NHL-WHA merger, and under the merger agreement the WHA players were supposed to be released by their teams and eligible for selection in the 1979 NHL draft. But Gretzky was playing under the terms of a very unusual contract at the time -- it was a personal services contract with Oilers' owner Peter Pocklington rather than a standard WHA player contract. He refused to terminate his contract, and since the NHL wanted to avoid disrupting the merger they didn't put up a fight over it. Instead, they reached an accommodation with the Oilers under which Edmonton was allowed to keep Gretzky but was dropped to the bottom of the draft order in 1979. So the Oil essentially stole arguably the greatest player of all time with some backroom shenanigans.

It just goes to show what was reality in professional sports 30 years ago. This whole self-righteous line of thinking that always gets bandied about when the discussion of the Penguins tanking for Lemieux 30 years ago I find kind of funny. The league back then is completely different than it is today.

This.

I laugh every time the Lemieux "tank" is brought up. Both the Devils and the Pens were equally bad teams for 2 years running. If the Pens tanked to get Lemieux, then it was a monumental two-year effort.

 

[puckhead]

Capitals former GM had recently admitted to tanking to be in range to pick Kris Beech or some silly player like that.
My favourite story about tanking is the Habs trading for the first round pick of one of the shitty teams, and then making trades to strengthen that team's nearest rival. Boom, the pick turned into the first overall, and hello Guy LaFleur. Reverse tanking by proxy.

The Gretzky story reminds me of also how Pavel Bure came to be a Canuck. Drafted in the 5th or 6th round the the surprise of the rest of the league. Canucks brass said they had the Russian game sheets to prove he was eligible, but that many have been a bit shady. NHL agreed not to press the matter if Pat Quinn would agree to drop an unrelated lawsuit against the league.

 

[pixburgher66]

Maybe an answer to the Oilers issue is to limit the amount of top 3 picks in a certain time period? Force teams to attempt competence? Of course the Oilers FO thinks that they're competent. That's the sad part.

 

[Comeds]

This is cool:

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Maybe an answer to the Oilers issue is to limit the amount of top 3 picks in a certain time period? Force teams to attempt competence? Of course the Oilers FO thinks that they're competent. That's the sad part.

Yeah I mean get all the first overall picks you want, but if you can't build the rest of the team it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[DevilishWon]

You're right on a lot of points, but also, what if a team that is just genuinely ran bad and isn't trying to tank, ends up not getting that first overall pick while a team like Boston could? Does that seem fair, too? I think there's a level where yes, some alterations of the draft lottery could be made, but I think a team like Boston getting that pick would also be going a bit too far

Life isn't fair...At some point the league should stop rewarding teams for putting a crap product on the ice year after year (currently see Edmonton but look at Pittsburgh...Crosby, Malkin, Fluery are basically all on the same team that was essentially rewarded for putting a horrible team out for several seasons).

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Life isn't fair...At some point the league should stop rewarding teams for putting a crap product on the ice year after year (currently see Edmonton but look at Pittsburgh...Crosby, Malkin, Fluery are basically all on the same team that was essentially rewarded for putting a horrible team out for several seasons).

Like I said, change the percentages, not the system. If only one out of 30 teams in your league is truly godawful and knows it from day 1, you have a leg up on the other 3 leagues.

 

[forty_three]

Can someone explain the Hamburglar thing to me? I have been super tied up with a crazy workload and haven't been watching a ton of hockey or NHL Network. I saw last night that the Sens goalie skated off holding a Hamburger.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Can someone explain the Hamburglar thing to me? I have been super tied up with a crazy workload and haven't been watching a ton of hockey or NHL Network. I saw last night that the Sens goalie skated off holding a Hamburger.

His name is Hammond. They nicknamed him Hamburglar.

 

[Comeds]

Its certainly better than calling him The Organ.