Ongoing NHL thread - Part deux

[forty_three]

His name is Hammond. They nicknamed him Hamburglar.

I was quite hopeful there was more to it than that.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I was quite hopeful there was more to it than that.

 

[pixburgher66]

Life isn't fair...At some point the league should stop rewarding teams for putting a crap product on the ice year after year (currently see Edmonton but look at Pittsburgh...Crosby, Malkin, Fluery are basically all on the same team that was essentially rewarded for putting a horrible team out for several seasons).

Yep, four years in the top 5 picks (although the Crosby year was more lucky than anything, seeing as it came off of a lockout). I wouldn't say that the Pens tanked in those years though. They were simply incompetently run. Hell, after Jagr gets traded they simply had no clue what the hell they were doing. The identity of the team was pretty much gone. You can't even say they tanked for Sid, because there was no season to tank. You can talk about them tanking for Lemieux, but 2001-2004 were just dark times for the team. Times plenty of teams have had. Hell, they went from losing in the ECF in 2001 to no playoffs for three years. Again: they traded Jagr and lost any semblance of identity. So much so that Mario felt the need to come back. Then money issues continue, they trade Kovy, etc. Frankly, they were simply lucky that their years of incompetence resulted in franchise players. Plenty of teams have had similar runs but get mired with a lack of talent because they draft a bust or it's simply not a good draft, etc.

 

[Comeds]

This is cool:

Yahoo Puck Daddy opines that while most everyone thinks what Price did was cool, if PK would have done this it would be labeled as childish distraction. Can't say I fully disagree.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Like I said, entering this season the only team people agreed were actively making an effort to stink was Buffalo. Edmonton, Toronto and Arizona all believed they could be competitive and only began flooring out after games had been played, and of those three teams only Arizona has offloaded some of their best players to date.

I should point out that no team plays another team more than 5 times, and just doing a quick look at their results Buffalo has taken its fair share of points against the Isles, Panthers, Capitals, Tampa and Montreal this season. Record means nothing - any NHL game has 50-50 odds. If your team misses the playoffs it's because they weren't good enough to play in them, not because other teams had to play the exact same teams you had to play.

Obviously I'm slightly biased being a Sabres fan, but I honestly don't believe they were making an effort to be bad, I think it's just under that whole "it's always darkest before the dawn" kind of thing.

The team was ineptly run for most of Regier's tenure. They had a few good years right after the lockout in the "new NHL" but that was luck more than anything. They had a boatload of terrible contracts - epitomized by Ville Leino - and finally made the decision to bring in a new GM.

Now he's got a decision to make: do you continue plodding along in the lower-middle of the pack and being a playoff bubble team year-in or do you blow it up start over?

Without being burdened with the pride factor of having been the one to sign a guy in the first place (i.e., it wasn't your mistake that you're admitting to) you can take an objective look and get rid of a guy. And sure they offloaded everyone, but nobody with any hockey sense looked at this team and said they were only 2-3 years away from being competitive again. They were in too bad of shape. So if you know you've got 4-5 years before you can reasonably be competitive, it just makes sense to get rid of people and get future assets for them. Sure a guy like Vanek or Pominville is good now, but how good will he be in 4-5 years when the team is competitive again, assuming they haven't already bolted in free agency.

And they were one of the most active teams in the off-season, bringing in several free agents, plus the trade for Georges. Sure those didn't really work out, but they're only 4 points "ahead" of Edmonton.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Obviously I'm slightly biased being a Sabres fan, but I honestly don't believe they were making an effort to be bad, I think it's just under that whole "it's always darkest before the dawn" kind of thing.

The team was ineptly run for most of Regier's tenure. They had a few good years right after the lockout in the "new NHL" but that was luck more than anything. They had a boatload of terrible contracts - epitomized by Ville Leino - and finally made the decision to bring in a new GM.

Now he's got a decision to make: do you continue plodding along in the lower-middle of the pack and being a playoff bubble team year-in or do you blow it up start over?

Without being burdened with the pride factor of having been the one to sign a guy in the first place (i.e., it wasn't your mistake that you're admitting to) you can take an objective look and get rid of a guy. And sure they offloaded everyone, but nobody with any hockey sense looked at this team and said they were only 2-3 years away from being competitive again. They were in too bad of shape. So if you know you've got 4-5 years before you can reasonably be competitive, it just makes sense to get rid of people and get future assets for them. Sure a guy like Vanek or Pominville is good now, but how good will he be in 4-5 years when the team is competitive again, assuming they haven't already bolted in free agency.

And they were one of the most active teams in the off-season, bringing in several free agents, plus the trade for Georges. Sure those didn't really work out, but they're only 4 points "ahead" of Edmonton.

It's funny how at the time, even though it was a mistake to let Danny Briere and Chris Drury go, in hindsight, it was actually smart on their part - the main issue was that they didn't go out and replace those guys

 

[forty_three]

#43 is #1 (star of the week)

Still can't figure out who won that trade. As I understand it, Philly got faster and Hartsy was unable to stay upright.

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

It's funny how at the time, even though it was a mistake to let Danny Briere and Chris Drury go, in hindsight, it was actually smart on their part - the main issue was that they didn't go out and replace those guys

I know what you're saying, but it's obviously never that simple, even in hindsight.

For example, in this specific case, if they re-sign Drury and Briere, maybe they let Vanek go when Edmonton signs him to an offer sheet. Then they get Edmonton's next 4 first round picks. All of which ended up being high and/or #1 overall.

So who knows what would have happened.

 

[forty_three]

Oh, and related... He needs to take Dano out to dinner for at least one of those goals.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I know what you're saying, but it's obviously never that simple, even in hindsight.

For example, in this specific case, if they re-sign Drury and Briere, maybe they let Vanek go when Edmonton signs him to an offer sheet. Then they get Edmonton's next 4 first round picks. All of which ended up being high and/or #1 overall.

So who knows what would have happened.

You think the Sabres would have made the right picks? That's also hindsight too, they could have always traded those picks later on because they felt they needed to compete right away

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

You think the Sabres would have made the right picks? That's also hindsight too, they could have always traded those picks later on because they felt they needed to compete right away

I don't know. That's what I mean when I say that it's not so simple, even with hindsight in this case.

They may have taken the exact same players Edmonton did or they may have gone a different direction. Or maybe Edmonton would have been better (haha, unlikely, I know) with Vanek in their lineup and the picks would have been lower anyhow.

Hard to say.

 

[dare2be]

Yep, four years in the top 5 picks (although the Crosby year was more lucky than anything, seeing as it came off of a lockout). I wouldn't say that the Pens tanked in those years though. They were simply incompetently run. Hell, after Jagr gets traded they simply had no clue what the hell they were doing. The identity of the team was pretty much gone. You can't even say they tanked for Sid, because there was no season to tank. You can talk about them tanking for Lemieux, but 2001-2004 were just dark times for the team. Times plenty of teams have had. Hell, they went from losing in the ECF in 2001 to no playoffs for three years. Again: they traded Jagr and lost any semblance of identity. So much so that Mario felt the need to come back. Then money issues continue, they trade Kovy, etc. Frankly, they were simply lucky that their years of incompetence resulted in franchise players. Plenty of teams have had similar runs but get mired with a lack of talent because they draft a bust or it's simply not a good draft, etc.

Actually, the incompetence came before that with Howard Baldwin (ack, phoo) who put them into bankruptcy. It wasn't until after the ownership change and coming out of bankruptcy did they have to go into fire sale mode just to stay solvent.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I don't know. That's what I mean when I say that it's not so simple, even with hindsight in this case.

They may have taken the exact same players Edmonton did or they may have gone a different direction. Or maybe Edmonton would have been better (haha, unlikely, I know) with Vanek in their lineup and the picks would have been lower anyhow.

Hard to say.

Buffalo might have been smart to just tear it down completely if they were going to let those guys go in FA - but it was hard too because Ryan Miller was at his peak and it would have wasted his prime years

Buffalo has seemed to draft well even before Tim Murray came in so they probably would have gotten some extra base hits with their draft picks

 

[pixburgher66]

I know what you're saying, but it's obviously never that simple, even in hindsight.

For example, in this specific case, if they re-sign Drury and Briere, maybe they let Vanek go when Edmonton signs him to an offer sheet. Then they get Edmonton's next 4 first round picks. All of which ended up being high and/or #1 overall.

So who knows what would have happened.

Oh mannnnnnnnn. I don't remember this, but...geez.

 

[pixburgher66]

Actually, the incompetence came before that with Howard Baldwin (ack, phoo) who put them into bankruptcy. It wasn't until after the ownership change and coming out of bankruptcy did they have to go into fire sale mode just to stay solvent.

Yeah, I was going to mention that, but the team on the ice did okay during his sad tenure, it was the off ice crap that screwed them down the line.

 

[dare2be]

Yeah, I was going to mention that, but the team on the ice did okay during his sad tenure, it was the off ice crap that screwed them down the line.

The only reason the team did ok during his tenure is because he sold the team down the river in bloated contracts and ridiculous lease agreements with the city/arena. It came back to bite them by the late 90s.

 

[mattola]

at canucks and leafs game. passed out fan

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I know what you're saying, but it's obviously never that simple, even in hindsight.

For example, in this specific case, if they re-sign Drury and Briere, maybe they let Vanek go when Edmonton signs him to an offer sheet. Then they get Edmonton's next 4 first round picks. All of which ended up being high and/or #1 overall.

So who knows what would have happened.

Actually, Edmonton's first two draft picks after the offer sheet were 22nd and 10th, and that was without Vanek's scoring. Hell, with Vanek there maybe they don't wind up with any first overalls and are even more mediocre than they are now!

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Actually, Edmonton's first two draft picks after the offer sheet were 22nd and 10th, and that was without Vanek's scoring. Hell, with Vanek there maybe they don't wind up with any first overalls and are even more mediocre than they are now!

Memory is a bit hazy since it was back in '07, but I believe Edmonton had already moved the first of what would have been the four picks that the Sabres would have gotten, so the first that Buffalo gets would have been the 10th. Could be wrong on that though.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Memory is a bit hazy since it was back in '07, but I believe Edmonton had already moved the first of what would have been the four picks that the Sabres would have gotten, so the first that Buffalo gets would have been the 10th. Could be wrong on that though.

The 22nd was the pick they used on Eberle in 2008. The Vanek offer sheet was in July 2007, so it would've been included.

They also would've missed out on excellent 10th overall pick Magnus Paajarvi. Of course, the 2009 draft was a steaming pile of donkey shit after the 7th pick so maybe they get a pass on that one and Buf were just better off with Vanek anyway.