Offseason Discussion-2013 Edition

[gp956]

Semantics. What one person calls "second half adjustments" can be "in-game adjustments." The impact on offense isn't usually shown until the second half where a tweak in the game plan opens things up for a play that wasn't practiced all week. I can understand Fangio seeing it as a misnomer because technology allows him to speak to his assistants anytime and top players immediately after a series, and the necessity of early defensive adjustments have things fairly well set up by half time. My interest is more in the impact of the adjustments, which rarely occur before the second half, due to better understanding of the opposing team's game plan.

Fair enough.

And in response, I present Ronnie Lott and Mark Bavaro:

 

[Heathbar012]

Fair enough.

And in response, I present Ronnie Lott and Mark Bavaro:

Vicious hit. Perfect form other than the lack of wrap-up (but I'm pretty sure he knew he wouldn't have to wrap Bavaro up to get him down). If it wasn't for that, it would be a great tackling video for kids. "Here is how to avoid concussions and possible paralysis... for the tackler."

 

[Heathbar012]

We have Stratton, who MAY be ready by mid '14. Blackburn and Crick may be available by mid '15 or so. We also have Kickham, Heston, Surkamp, etc who can be decent 4/5s.

While I am OK with resigning Zito, it needs to be for value and with an understanding of what is expected from Song and Timmeh long term.

Luckily, they can evaluate it one year at a time with a sunk cost. He will be dangerously close to vesting that $18 mil option. In fact, since we are rooting for the Giants to have a good season, we might also be rooting for Zito to pitch enough innings to get that extra year. Never thought we'd find ourselves here, but it isn't quite the "predicament" we would have assumed two years ago, either.

 

[Stokes1931]

And if he gives us more 2012 type performances I am right there with him. What would a durable 2012 Zito (lefty innings eater) get? $10 mil/yr?

With his overpaid under-performance for the first five years of his contract, I say he the Giants sign with him for about $5 million per season.

 

[Stokes1931]

Vicious hit. Perfect form other than the lack of wrap-up (but I'm pretty sure he knew he wouldn't have to wrap Bavaro up to get him down). If it wasn't for that, it would be a great tackling video for kids. "Here is how to avoid concussions and possible paralysis... for the tackler."

"...and few people take you to the laundrymat like Ronnie Lott."

Immortal words.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

With his overpaid under-performance for the first five years of his contract, I say he the Giants sign with him for about $5 million per season.

Well if you really want to even things out, he should sign a 3 yr -$30million deal.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Nothing to argue about. My position all along was that we didn't have a championship defense. This was made clear to me in Foxboro, and nothing after that appeared to argue against that. They got one game further than they probably should have, due mostly to good fortune.

They are positioned to contend for years; I'm good with that.

I would argue against that for sure. What we had was a great defense and then... Justin Smith tore his triceps tendon. Which screwed our pass rush and exposed our coverage issues. We had a better D than the Ravens even, gave up 27 (+ 7 on ST) even after a 21 pt 1st half. Better than their D. Good enough to win. Just didn't get it done in the end.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Zito is open to an extension. Wants to retire an SF Giant.

SO glad to be able to talk about baseball!

I'd love to see Zito sign for $22M or $24M for 2013-14. I don't expect it though.

 

[tzill]

In today's market, $10 mil/yr is probably reasonable. Zito's shown himself to be a reliable back end starter. I don't think we have anyone ready from the farm, so why not?

Because by next year we WILL have someone ready to step in, at about $400k per year.

 

[tzill]

I would argue against that for sure. What we had was a great defense and then... Justin Smith tore his triceps tendon. Which screwed our pass rush and exposed our coverage issues. We had a better D than the Ravens even, gave up 27 (+ 7 on ST) even after a 21 pt 1st half. Better than their D. Good enough to win. Just didn't get it done in the end.

We may have a better defense than the Ravens (although that's arguable), but as bolded, we gave up 21 points in one half; we allowed scores on six of twelve posessions; we gave up five drives of 9+ plays; we allowed 67% pass completions; we had two sacks. If the greatness of our defense rested on JSmith's triceps, then shame on us.

Here's a better theory: we have crap corners. Justin and Aldon covered up for that glaring deficiency for 12 games until Justin was hurt, then they were exposed for the fraudulent players they are. We won vs. Green Bay and Atlanta because the offense saved the mediocre defense's ass. Against the Ravens, it was too much to overcome (barely).

All I'm left to conclude is that 2012 was a strange year without a clearly dominant team -- or two. Could we have won? Sure. Did we deserve to win? No. I've seen five Niner SBs and ALL of those defenses were much better than the 2012 version. We didn't deserve to win. In fact, it could be argued that we didn't even deserve to be in the SB.

The good news is that we will be better next year. Baalke will correct the DB situation.

 

[tzill]

SO glad to be able to talk about baseball!

I'd love to see Zito sign for $22M or $24M for 2013-14. I don't expect it though.

Why would he do that? He gets $25MM for 2013-14 as is ($18MM this year and a $7MM buyout for next).

If he were to redo his contract, he'd have to get something like 3/35 at the least.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

We may have a better defense than the Ravens (although that's arguable), but as bolded, we gave up 21 points in one half; we allowed scores on six of twelve posessions; we gave up five drives of 9+ plays; we allowed 67% pass completions; we had two sacks. If the greatness of our defense rested on JSmith's triceps, then shame on us.

Here's a better theory: we have crap corners. Justin and Aldon covered up for that glaring deficiency for 12 games until Justin was hurt, then they were exposed for the fraudulent players they are. We won vs. Green Bay and Atlanta because the offense saved the mediocre defense's ass. Against the Ravens, it was too much to overcome (barely).

All I'm left to conclude is that 2012 was a strange year without a clearly dominant team -- or two. Could we have won? Sure. Did we deserve to win? No. I've seen five Niner SBs and ALL of those defenses were much better than the 2012 version. We didn't deserve to win. In fact, it could be argued that we didn't even deserve to be in the SB.

The good news is that we will be better next year. Baalke will correct the DB situation.

It's not arguable. The Niners gave up less yards (both rushing and passing) and less points than the Ravens in the SB. During the regular season they gave up only 273 points - 71 points less than the Ravens over 4 points a game. Only Seattle gave up fewer points than we did. So if you want to say we didn't have a SB caliber defense no one did - except maybe Seattle - but we still had the 2nd best D this season and it was better than any of our opponents in the playoffs. I agree that the D wasn't playing their best at in the playoffs or towards the end of the season (curiously coinciding with Justin's injury).

And yes that injury exposed our corners (not Brown) that's what I said up there! I agree they need to upgrade at least one CB. No doubt.

They lost the game, and there were plenty of failures to go around. All around. But the D gave up less than the opponent you can't ask for more really, regardless of how/when the other team scores.

 

[SFAnthem]

We may have a better defense than the Ravens (although that's arguable), but as bolded, we gave up 21 points in one half; we allowed scores on six of twelve posessions; we gave up five drives of 9+ plays; we allowed 67% pass completions; we had two sacks. If the greatness of our defense rested on JSmith's triceps, then shame on us.

Here's a better theory: we have crap corners. Justin and Aldon covered up for that glaring deficiency for 12 games until Justin was hurt, then they were exposed for the fraudulent players they are. We won vs. Green Bay and Atlanta because the offense saved the mediocre defense's ass. Against the Ravens, it was too much to overcome (barely).

All I'm left to conclude is that 2012 was a strange year without a clearly dominant team -- or two. Could we have won? Sure. Did we deserve to win? No. I've seen five Niner SBs and ALL of those defenses were much better than the 2012 version. We didn't deserve to win. In fact, it could be argued that we didn't even deserve to be in the SB.

The good news is that we will be better next year. Baalke will correct the DB situation.

Deserve is a tough word to defend. Scored more points than the other team = deserve.

The other 5 super bowl teams were constructed differently, in different eras, salary and rule restrictions.

It's a passing league, the niners defense was pretty much the exception last year.

In football, the offense and the defense work pretty close in tandem in terms of clock and field position. There is a distinct correlation of the offense struggling contributing to the defense struggling.

Noting the Pats, Seattle and Atlanta games, where the defense gave up huge amounts of points, the offense did jacksh*t on their possession in between those drives.

 

[SFAnthem]

It's not arguable. The Niners gave up less yards (both rushing and passing) and less points than the Ravens in the SB. During the regular season they gave up only 273 points - 71 points less than the Ravens over 4 points a game. Only Seattle gave up fewer points than we did. So if you want to say we didn't have a SB caliber defense no one did - except maybe Seattle - but we still had the 2nd best D this season and it was better than any of our opponents in the playoffs. I agree that the D wasn't playing their best at in the playoffs or towards the end of the season (curiously coinciding with Justin's injury).

And yes that injury exposed our corners (not Brown) that's what I said up there! I agree they need to upgrade at least one CB. No doubt.

They lost the game, and there were plenty of failures to go around. All around. But the D gave up less than the opponent you can't ask for more really, regardless of how/when the other team scores.

I do defend the defense but I will say this. The complexion of the game changes when the niners are down 10+ points. The opposing offense has a different objective, time possession becomes more important than just points.

In the Atlanta and Baltimore games, the defense held them to less points and yards but when up three scores, their offense may have changed to suit the situation and become more conservative. What the niners defense does deserve credit is the turnovers they caused in the second half for both games.

When using points and yards as measuring sticks alone to evaluate performance, you have to consider what the game situation was at the time they were yielded.

My take on the defense lies somewhere in the middle between yours and tzill. A mixed bag of results, not deserving as much credit as you give em and not as much criticism as tzill puts on them.

 

[Stokes1931]

You could say the special teams lost this Super Bowl for us. Without that KO return to begin the 2nd half, we win.

Coulda

Woulda

Shoulda

 

[SFAnthem]

You could say the special teams lost this Super Bowl for us. Without that KO return to begin the 2nd half, we win.

Coulda

Woulda

Shoulda

Didn't.

fify

In effort to change the subject, who's going fanfest tomorrow and have you guys seen Timmy's new look? It's like 07 again

 

[Robotech]

fify

In effort to change the subject, who's going fanfest tomorrow and have you guys seen Timmy's new look? It's like 07 again

Timmy back to looking like the bat boy.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Timmy back to looking like the bat boy.

Hopefully he stops pitching like the bat boy.:rollseyes:

 

[gp956]

Timmy back to looking like the bat boy.

Hope he doesn't pitch like one in 2013.

 

[Stokes1931]

fify

In effort to change the subject, who's going fanfest tomorrow and have you guys seen Timmy's new look? It's like 07 again

I thought it was Harry Potter at first. Hopefully Timmy is back to his pitching wizardry.