Official Raw thread

[futballiscool]

You could not be more wrong on this. HHH attacking Rollins completely out of left field is great and on purpose. That's the entire purpose of a swerve. It's not suppose to have build up. That's entirely the point and it worked to great effect.

To me, a good swerve suprises the audience, but it's still planned in advance. It still has an obvious story line trajectory going forward. This felt like they skipped 3 months of storyline because Balor's injury put them in a bind. I consider this more of Hotshot angle or a Deus Ex Machina than an great swerve. The Rock turning heel at SurvivorSeries 98 was a great swerve. It turned him into the second biggest star in the company at the time. It setup his era defining feud with Austin. It turned Foley into a sympathetic Babyface. The ending of the match was a swerve but the long-term stories had already been setup and could now be executed to perfection.
Where does this go? More McMahon drama? More authority angles? Year 3 of HHH vs the Shield? Maybe it goes somewhere interesting, but MNF starts in 2 weeks and I think they're going with boring shit that they trust.

Owens is as a good an overall performer as they have now so I think he can make his story work. But HHH just handed him a brand new title that's already been devalued. That belt has no lineage and should have been protected from HHH powerplays for at least a month.

Anyway, we'll see what they have planned. If they prove me wrong I get a good wrestlers show. If I'm right I get NFL on Mondays with no channel surfing. Either one is fine

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

To me, a good swerve suprises the audience, but it's still planned in advance. It still has an obvious story line trajectory going forward. This felt like they skipped 3 months of storyline because Balor's injury put them in a bind. I consider this more of Hotshot angle or a Deus Ex Machina than an great swerve. The Rock turning heel at SurvivorSeries 98 was a great swerve. It turned him into the second biggest star in the company at the time. It setup his era defining feud with Austin. It turned Foley into a sympathetic Babyface. The ending of the match was a swerve but the long-term stories had already been setup and could now be executed to perfection.
Where does this go? More McMahon drama? More authority angles? Year 3 of HHH vs the Shield? Maybe it goes somewhere interesting, but MNF starts in 2 weeks and I think they're going with boring shit that they trust.

Owens is as a good an overall performer as they have now so I think he can make his story work. But HHH just handed him a brand new title that's already been devalued. That belt has no lineage and should have been protected from HHH powerplays for at least a month.

Anyway, we'll see what they have planned. If they prove me wrong I get a good wrestlers show. If I'm right I get NFL on Mondays with no channel surfing. Either one is fine

You seem to be under the impression that HHH books Raw, he doesn't. Vince does. This is typical Vince booking. NXT is an example of HHH's booking, Raw is not. HHH is just a performer on Raw and all creative runs thru Vince. So, if anyone is to blame for how HHH's run in was booked it's Vince and NOT HHH.

 

[futballiscool]

You seem to be under the impression that HHH books Raw, he doesn't. Vince does. This is typical Vince booking. NXT is an example of HHH's booking, Raw is not. HHH is just a performer on Raw and all creative runs thru Vince. So, if anyone is to blame for how HHH's run in was booked it's Vince and NOT HHH.

Who said HHH books it?

 

[futballiscool]

[QUOTE="futballiscool, post: 882633

Owens is as a good an overall performer as they have now so I think he can make his story work. But HHH just handed him a brand new title that's already been devalued. That belt has no lineage and should have been protected from HHH powerplays for at least a month.

[/QUOTE]

Wade Keller made this exact point on the Torch last night practically verbatim. I didn't hear it until after my post. Other people are seeing that issue too. It looks like I ripped him off, that's how much we agreed

 

[Judge Fudge]

[QUOTE="futballiscool, post: 882633

Owens is as a good an overall performer as they have now so I think he can make his story work. But HHH just handed him a brand new title that's already been devalued. That belt has no lineage and should have been protected from HHH powerplays for at least a month.

Wade Keller made this exact point on the Torch last night practically verbatim. I didn't hear it until after my post. Other people are seeing that issue too. It looks like I ripped him off, that's how much we agreed[/QUOTE]

Oh ya. Imo this could end in 2 ways

A) Ratings could go down hill(see finger poke of doom)

B) This could lead to more compiling storyline with Owens/ HHH on one side and Raw Runners on the other. Ending at WM

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Who said HHH books it?

'powerplays' implies he booked himself that way or it was his idea which is not the case. And if you mean lobbied Vince to book him in that manner, HHH has stated many times he wouldn't book things the way Vince does and often doesn't agree with how Vince books him. Easy to say I know but NXT is an example that HHH maybe telling the truth about that.

All that said, I agree the title win could've been booked to make the Championship and Owens look stronger BUT that is on Vince and NOT HHH.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Wade Keller made this exact point on the Torch last night practically verbatim. I didn't hear it until after my post. Other people are seeing that issue too. It looks like I ripped him off, that's how much we agreed

Oh ya. Imo this could end in 2 ways

A) Ratings could go down hill(see finger poke of doom)

B) This could lead to more compiling storyline with Owens/ HHH on one side and Raw Runners on the other. Ending at WM[/QUOTE]

So a husband vs. wife storyline. There is no way in hell Vince books that any way but poorly!!!

 

[futballiscool]

'powerplays' implies he booked himself that way or it was his idea which is not the case. And if you mean lobbied Vince to book him in that manner, HHH has stated many times he wouldn't book things the way Vince does and often doesn't agree with how Vince books him. Easy to say I know but NXT is an example that HHH maybe telling the truth about that.

All that said, I agree the title win could've been booked to make the Championship and Owens look stronger BUT that is on Vince and NOT HHH.

Fair point, but I'm not really talking about backstage politics or booking. The HHH character just made himself more important than the new title. The character just won the RR an headlined the biggest WM in history after winning the Rumble in his mid/late 40s. The HHH character has the last pin vs Brock Lesnar.

I don't know how much say he has in his booking but whoever is doing it should be more concerned with the fulltime roster and the guys in their prime

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Fair point, but I'm not really talking about backstage politics or booking. The HHH character just made himself more important than the new title. The character just won the RR an headlined the biggest WM in history after winning the Rumble in his mid/late 40s. The HHH character has the last pin vs Brock Lesnar.

I don't know how much say he has in his booking but whoever is doing it should be more concerned with the fulltime roster and the guys in their prime

I agree WWE just made HHH bigger than the title. All creative runs thru Vince, so Vince made that call and it's Vince booking 101. It's a big reason why the younger talent is never elevated to the top level.

 

[Judge Fudge]

Fair point, but I'm not really talking about backstage politics or booking. The HHH character just made himself more important than the new title. The character just won the RR an headlined the biggest WM in history after winning the Rumble in his mid/late 40s. The HHH character has the last pin vs Brock Lesnar.

I don't know how much say he has in his booking but whoever is doing it should be more concerned with the fulltime roster and the guys in their prime

And this is why i think its more like the finger poke of doom.

Dr. McMahon might have to perform life saving surgery to save RAW

 

[Judge Fudge]

I agree WWE just made HHH bigger than the title. All creative runs thru Vince, so Vince made that call and it's Vince booking 101. It's a big reason why the younger talent is never elevated to the top level.

And inlies the mistake. Young talent and talent who DESERVE IT are not being pushed because of shotty booking. The only young kid that they are high on is Big Cass.

Now unless the life saving surgery works, it has in the past( Attitude Era), then Vince might have to be ready for tough times ahead.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

And this is why i think its more like the finger poke of doom.

Dr. McMahon might have to perform life saving surgery to save RAW

If Dr. McMahon is performing the surgery the patient is DOA. Or he'll just pull another hand out of the patient's arse! Either way the fans end up getting screwed!!!!!!

 

[futballiscool]

Since I've been mostly negative on the ending, I want to go back to the point... They're booking on the fly because of Finn's injury...

If this gets Owens over as a top star and Rollins becomes the top face of the show and they start a long-term feud as the focal point of the show it can be amazing.

We'll see where it goes.

 

[Judge Fudge]

Since I've been mostly negative on the ending, I want to go back to the point... They're booking on the fly because of Finn's injury...

If this gets Owens over as a top star and Rollins becomes the top face of the show and they start a long-term feud as the focal point of the show it can be amazing.

We'll see where it goes.

Don't say anything about Finn's injury.

Gets Tubbs all worked up

 

[Judge Fudge]

Anyways.

A little humor to take away from the hostility been thrown around.

Vince McMahon: Require Roman Reigns to remove his ILLEGAL vest during the course of WWE competition.

 

[wildturkey]

To me, a good swerve suprises the audience, but it's still planned in advance. It still has an obvious story line trajectory going forward. This felt like they skipped 3 months of storyline because Balor's injury put them in a bind. I consider this more of Hotshot angle or a Deus Ex Machina than an great swerve. The Rock turning heel at SurvivorSeries 98 was a great swerve. It turned him into the second biggest star in the company at the time. It setup his era defining feud with Austin. It turned Foley into a sympathetic Babyface. The ending of the match was a swerve but the long-term stories had already been setup and could now be executed to perfection.
Where does this go? More McMahon drama? More authority angles? Year 3 of HHH vs the Shield? Maybe it goes somewhere interesting, but MNF starts in 2 weeks and I think they're going with boring shit that they trust.

Owens is as a good an overall performer as they have now so I think he can make his story work. But HHH just handed him a brand new title that's already been devalued. That belt has no lineage and should have been protected from HHH powerplays for at least a month.

Anyway, we'll see what they have planned. If they prove me wrong I get a good wrestlers show. If I'm right I get NFL on Mondays with no channel surfing. Either one is fine

It has plenty of places it can go and that's why its a benefit doing it the way they did it; no build up and a true surprise. Now you have to watch and see. That's the intention. It's also the right call. Take that out and have the match end clean. What happens then? Owens beats Cass, Rollins, and Reigns, a significant chunk of his competition. Where's the hook in watching any of them go at it again? Cesaro/Sheamus are tied up for weeks still in their 7 match series. Rusev is the US champion. You'd be stuck with Zayn, which the two do fantastic work together, but they literally just ended that program. And what do you do with Rollins, Reigns, and Cass after that? They all just lost clean. You gonna throw them in yet another tournament? There's a hell of a lot more intrigue the route they went than the other options. What I'm seeing here is most of this is stemming from the fact you and others just don't like HHH and instead of just outright saying you personally don't like HHH to the point it spoils it, you're looking for any other reason to knock down a really well done wrestling angle. It's fine if you guys don't like HHH, but I think its nuts to use any kind of reasoning related to structural storytelling. They did a top notch job there.

As for the putting HHH above the title stuff people are talking about and how it ruins the build of the Universal title, save me that nonsense right now. It's a brand new title. We have no idea what they are doing with it. For all you know, HHH could say KO is the only man worthy of having the title so that's why he did what he did and they book him as a strong, intimidating champion (just like they did in NXT) and the belt looks great. Again, this is just projecting personal feelings onto events that haven't even happened yet.

 

[futballiscool]

It has plenty of places it can go and that's why its a benefit doing it the way they did it; no build up and a true surprise. Now you have to watch and see. That's the intention. It's also the right call. Take that out and have the match end clean. What happens then? Owens beats Cass, Rollins, and Reigns, a significant chunk of his competition. Where's the hook in watching any of them go at it again? Cesaro/Sheamus are tied up for weeks still in their 7 match series. Rusev is the US champion. You'd be stuck with Zayn, which the two do fantastic work together, but they literally just ended that program. And what do you do with Rollins, Reigns, and Cass after that? They all just lost clean. You gonna throw them in yet another tournament? There's a hell of a lot more intrigue the route they went than the other options. What I'm seeing here is most of this is stemming from the fact you and others just don't like HHH and instead of just outright saying you personally don't like HHH to the point it spoils it, you're looking for any other reason to knock down a really well done wrestling angle. It's fine if you guys don't like HHH, but I think its nuts to use any kind of reasoning related to structural storytelling. They did a top notch job there.

As for the putting HHH above the title stuff people are talking about and how it ruins the build of the Universal title, save me that nonsense right now. It's a brand new title. We have no idea what they are doing with it. For all you know, HHH could say KO is the only man worthy of having the title so that's why he did what he did and they book him as a strong, intimidating champion (just like they did in NXT) and the belt looks great. Again, this is just projecting personal feelings onto events that haven't even happened yet.

There's so much to unravel here. The match didn't need Rollins and Reigns in it and it also didn't have to be an elimination match (that stipulation was added the night of the show). There were a million ways to give Owens a legitimate title win while protecting either of those guys or both of them if you feel that's a pressing issue. That match didn't need HHH pedigreeing the top of the card. But just for comparisons' sake, Balor (granted he's a babyface) pinned Reigns and Rollins in separate one on one matches. They weren't worried about going through top notch challengers when they booked his win. That's not something you worry about when making someone a strong champion

You think there's a bunch of unanswered questions because they've booked a great cliffhanger wrestling angle. I think there's a bunch of unanswered question because they've hotshotted a nonsensical angle. I'm curious for their explanation not because of masterful storytelling, but because it made absolutely no sense. Again, I'm willing to forgive this because of Balor's injury but Hotshotting an angle is easy booking. I can do it. Creating a tight story after the fact is where it gets tricky. But right now... no face, no heels, a weak champ. They have a lot of obvious issues to fix in the story.

About the idea that I hate HHH. That's not true. I think he's a legend and a great performer. This has nothing to do with him. It's about his character as a semi retired wrestler still being booked above the roster and as the focal point of the show. My issue is with his booking and place in the storylines. Kurt Angle's my favorite wrestler from the Attitude Era. If he's named an authority figure on SD pulls this shit for a month I would hate his booking too. HHH has been doing this for years

Personally I think if Rusev was in the Owens spot on Monday people wouldn't be looking at it with rose colored glasses and they would see the same flaws that I am seeing.

Hopefully I am wrong. I hope Owens is a strong champ and not a transitional one. I hope this doesn't lead to more authority angle/McMahon drama BS. But I am a skeptic

 

[wildturkey]

There's so much to unravel here. The match didn't need Rollins and Reigns in it and it also didn't have to be an elimination match (that stipulation was added the night of the show). There were a million ways to give Owens a legitimate title win while protecting either of those guys or both of them if you feel that's a pressing issue. That match didn't need HHH pedigreeing the top of the card. But just for comparisons' sake, Balor (granted he's a babyface) pinned Reigns and Rollins in separate one on one matches. They weren't worried about going through top notch challengers when they booked his win. That's not something you worry about when making someone a strong champion

You think there's a bunch of unanswered questions because they've booked a great cliffhanger wrestling angle. I think there's a bunch of unanswered question because they've hotshotted a nonsensical angle. I'm curious for their explanation not because of masterful storytelling, but because it made absolutely no sense. Again, I'm willing to forgive this because of Balor's injury but Hotshotting an angle is easy booking. I can do it. Creating a tight story after the fact is where it gets tricky. But right now... no face, no heels, a weak champ. They have a lot of obvious issues to fix in the story.

About the idea that I hate HHH. That's not true. I think he's a legend and a great performer. This has nothing to do with him. It's about his character as a semi retired wrestler still being booked above the roster and as the focal point of the show. My issue is with his booking and place in the storylines. Kurt Angle's my favorite wrestler from the Attitude Era. If he's named an authority figure on SD pulls this shit for a month I would hate his booking too. HHH has been doing this for years

Personally I think if Rusev was in the Owens spot on Monday people wouldn't be looking at it with rose colored glasses and they would see the same flaws that I am seeing.

Hopefully I am wrong. I hope Owens is a strong champ and not a transitional one. I hope this doesn't lead to more authority angle/McMahon drama BS. But I am a skeptic

It's not nonsensical. HHH had issues with Reigns. Clearly he's now got some motivation with Rollins. You'll find out soon enough. There isn't anything beyond that. What's in there that you can't make sense of? Are you confused of the face/heel alignment now? Good. Again, that is THE ENTIRE POINT of a swerve. It's a shocking moment to leave you wanting more and wondering why. You tease all that beforehand and you lose that moment. People will be expecting it and some jaded fans will whine about how they saw it all coming and how WWE doesn't surprise people anymore. And this is not hotshotting. Hotshotting is continuously burning through payoffs with no rhyme or reason or follow up just to spike ratings. Just because you don't know the follow up yet doesn't make it a hot shot. They had to scrap their plans. They rewrote it and this is what they've come up with. That's not a hotshot. This story they've come up with is an intriguing one and they used the swerve perfectly to create that intrigue. Yet you're over here complaining how its a mess when the story isn't even fully played out yet (its barely even begun) because by your logic, it didn't check off predictable selling points of foreshadowed teases and the like. But if it did, people would be out there bitching about how predictable WWE is. This is typical smark behavior, no matter how good something is that they're given, they're gonna find a way to shit on it.

 

[futballiscool]

Just a general word of advice. Someone can disagree with your opinion on a wrestling angle with out it being bitching, completely wrong, "typical smark behavior" etc. You like an ending to a match and I didn't. It's as simple as that...

About hotshot angles, per wikipedia's wrestling glossary..
"A rushed feud, climax of a feud, or big match on television instead of at a pay-per-view in order to get a short-term boost for business.[1] Also applies to angles or turns that are done for shock value rather than acting as a part of an ongoing storyline."

It was a world title match on Raw with a shocking ending that made no sense in the narrative structure of the show. It's the most textbook definition of a hotshot angle since Russo was booking Nitro.

Now it can obviously be defended. Balor's injury forced them to reset storylines. Raw is boring and stale and needed a shot in the arm. That would be a fine, logical defense. It was still hotshoted in every sense of the term.

Had the angle been Stephanie handing Roman a chair to beat Rollins and/or Owens to facilitate a double turn that would have been great. The players would have been properly aligned and they would have been the star of the show as opposed to the semi-retired wrestlers and the owner's daughter.

When I think of a great swerve, I think of a bait and switch where the audience is mislead, and the end is a surprise but at the end of angle it all makes sense. When Rock became the corporate champ at survivor series I didn't need a 15 minute, contrived talking segment on the next Raw to explain what happened. There were holes you could poke in the storytelling but the ending made perfect sense going forward.

If this leads to Owens as the main event star of the show and the center of the story lines while HHH, and any authority, McMahon drama either nonexistent or kept to a minimum... I'll keep watching. If not I'm probably done with Raw through the football season. That's right when the Rumble/WM season starts. Perfect timing

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

I'm somewhat in the middle on this. I don't mind the HHH run in but think it could've been done in such a way as to make Owens and keep Rollins strong. A part time wrestler just took out two of your top starts with one finishing move each. I'm somewhat OK with one move taking out Reigns cause that happened on the floor. I think Rollins should've kicked out after the pedigree and Owens should've hit him with a frog splash or popup power bomb for the win. Then you would've still had the question of why HHH took out Rollins and Owens could brag he took out Rollins and would've beaten him anyway without HHH's help. Rollins is still strong cause it took two guys to beat him and he can demand a rematch. HHH could then say Owens was the best man and deserved to win which gives Owens the rub. I just think WWE has limited their choices of storyline going forward with the way they booked the finish.