Off Topic Lounge

[Lonewate44]

I've NEVER stated it was wrong for Brady to have doctored the ball. He clearly committed a violation. My issue always has been with the punishment that was issued. IMHO, it was excessive. I've articulated my reasons for that ad nauseum, not the least of which were the facts that he didn't get a competitive advantage and that everyone else is basically in the same boat as him.

Well I contend that he did get an advantage...(not necessarily in the colts game) but he did...otherwise he wouldnt have done it.......and I think he got off light for 1..... having the balls deflated against the rules after they were verified by the refs.... (everyone else doesnt doctor balls after oked by refs!!!!! so everyone else is NOT in the same boat as him) 2.. Not coperating with the investigation fully...and that is probably a big reason he got what he got...... Most employeers when doing something like an investigation require full coperation...if not...FIRED......since the NFL cant fire him..they can suspend him......



you keep saying everyone doctors and not getting the point....I have conceeded multiple times that yes...players doctor the balls...BUT NOT AFTER THE REFS check them out!!! THAT my friend is where the "crime" comes from

Im done with this conversation...it is painfully obvious, you cant grasp a simple concept....I will not reply to you in this anymore.....You and your continual skirting the issue on this is not worht my time or effort anymore

 

[redskinsfan]

Well I contend that he did get an advantage...(not necessarily in the colts game) but he did...otherwise he wouldnt have done it.......and I think he got off light for 1..... having the balls deflated against the rules after they were verified by the refs.... (everyone else doesnt doctor balls after oked by refs!!!!! so everyone else is NOT in the same boat as him) 2.. Not coperating with the investigation fully...and that is probably a big reason he got what he got...... Most employeers when doing something like an investigation require full coperation...if not...FIRED......since the NFL cant fire him..they can suspend him......



you keep saying everyone doctors and not getting the point....I have conceeded multiple times that yes...players doctor the balls...BUT NOT AFTER THE REFS check them out!!! THAT my friend is where the "crime" comes from

Im done with this conversation...it is painfully obvious, you cant grasp a simple concept....I will not reply to you in this anymore.....You and your continual skirting the issue on this is not worht my time or effort anymore

Huh?! I have addressed your insistence on placing near-dispositive weight on the fact that the balls were doctored after the refs checked them out. That is the issue of whether a violation occurred, something which I've agreed to. As I've stated umpteen times, I don't care when they were deflated. The fact that they were deflated didn't change the outcome of games and, in some cases, provided a corresponding disadvantage. This is a pretty basic point, not sure what you can't understand about that.

 

[skinsdad62]

brady got what he deserved . sorry but the childish "everyone else did it defense" wont fly with me . if that is your weak ass standard so be it its weak and feeble but its your standard

 

[redskinsfan]

brady got what he deserved . sorry but the childish "everyone else did it defense" wont fly with me . if that is your weak ass standard so be it its weak and feeble but its your standard

That's a standard that's used in terms of meting out punishment to employees covered by collective bargaining agreements, just like Brady is. It's essentially one to prevent disparate treatment. You can always say he violated a rule, but the "everyone also does it" factor is one that's always relevant when formulating punishment. Of course, there's the issue of Brady not cooperating, but that doesn't mean that other factor ins't taken into consideration.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

show me on the field period until then he is joe webb

Such angry words these days. Don't get mad at me because you post crappy analogies.

 

[redskinsfan]

Such angry words these days. Don't get mad at me because you post crappy analogies.

Well now, let's all calm down. And let's try a white guy instead of Joe Webb. Just sayin'.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

To be honest I'm having a hard time coming up with an example to use as a comparison to Griff. At first i was going to use another spread offense bust like David Klingler or Andre Ware. But they never had any success at all and sure didn't throw up a year with 20 Tds, only 5 picks, and a 100 passer rating.

Then I looked at guys like Jeff George who had limited success but Grifin isn't that guy either for a number of reasons. So I'm not sure thee is a good comparison. I do know it ain't Joe Webb.

 

[redskinsfan]

To be honest I'm having a hard time coming up with an example to use as a comparison to Griff. At first i was going to use another spread offense bust like David Klingler or Andre Ware. But they never had any success at all and sure didn't throw up a year with 20 Tds, only 5 picks, and a 100 passer rating.

Then I looked at guys like Jeff George who had limited success but Grifin isn't that guy either for a number of reasons. So I'm not sure thee is a good comparison. I do know it ain't Joe Webb.

Might be Josh Freeman. But what makes Griff unique is that he had a spectacular, earth-shattering rookie season. And the real reasons why he tanked the past two seasons were due to injury and inability to grasp being a pocket passer overnight. There really isn't an analogue to him.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Well now, let's all calm down. And let's try a white guy instead of Joe Webb. Just sayin'.

White, black or whatever - at least find a better comparison than Webb. That guy has not even thrown for 1000 yds in his entire career & was never considered to be the savior for anyone. Regardless of the last few years - and whatever may lie ahead for RG3 - he was considered to be a QB who could go a long way (and possibly still could) & - as mentioned previously - did have one spectacular season.

A better comparison - at least for now - would be a younger 1 year wonder that failed to subsequently produce. There have to be lots of examples along these lines. You might want to start by viewing this link:

NFL's greatest one-year wonders

A couple of potential candidates - Derek Anderson & Don Majkowski.

 

[Sharkinva]

That's a standard that's used in terms of meting out punishment to employees covered by collective bargaining agreements, just like Brady is. It's essentially one to prevent disparate treatment. You can always say he violated a rule, but the "everyone also does it" factor is one that's always relevant when formulating punishment. Of course, there's the issue of Brady not cooperating, but that doesn't mean that other factor ins't taken into consideration.

Thing is, the every one does it factor does not hold water here. Yes, every one does adjust the pressure in their balls to a point that feels comfortable for the QB in question. But if that comfortable balls feeling falls outside the established upper and lower limits of ball manipulation, well then its a violation of the rules. Brady isn't being punished for adjusting his balls, he is being punished because once they were adjusted to his liking, they did not meet NFL balls regulations. And the punishment was as harsh as it is because he tried to cover it up after the fact.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Thing is, the every one does it factor does not hold water here. Yes, every one does adjust the pressure in their balls to a point that feels comfortable for the QB in question. But if that comfortable balls feeling falls outside the established upper and lower limits of ball manipulation, well then its a violation of the rules. Brady isn't being punished for adjusting his balls, he is being punished because once they were adjusted to his liking, they did not meet NFL balls regulations. And the punishment was as harsh as it is because he tried to cover it up after the fact.

I think that your last statement about the cover up pretty much says it all. Since the Pats have a track record for less than ethical conduct I believe that a message is being sent that they can't continue to feel that they are somehow above the law at the risk of them doing similar in the future.

This country loves people who come clean about any wrongdoing & we are a forgiving society. What people really don't like are folks who feel that they are entitled & above it all. Like it or hate it - right or wrong - that is the feeling a lot of people have about Brady and the Pats.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I also believe that Belichick didn't help their cause with that ridiculous speech. All of sudden a guy who won't say two words goes on & on with this crazy babble about how they did nothing wrong - this was very insincere at the least.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

The Pats cheated. Is it a minor violation committed by dozens of others in the past? Of course. But saying you can cheat on your income tax because others do it doesn't fly with the IRA and it won't fly here either. Cheating is cheating and they got caught. Period.

While the violation may have been minor what the commish considered before giving out the punishment is the following:

Tom Brady lied. He looked the commission and everyone else in the eye and claimed he had no knowledge of underinflated balls. One look at those text messages confirms he lied. Not only was he aware it is pretty clear he was orchestrating it

The arrogance the Pats displayed when the story broke, daring the league and demanding an apology played a roll. If you are going to take that attitude then don't be surprised when it comes back to bite you

The history of the Pats. They have been caught before.

Tom Brady failed to cooperate fully with the investigators by failing to turn over his phone records. Now maybe a star may not want his text messages read, I get that. But there's a price to pay.

As always the coverup and lying is always punished harder than the crime. Add in the repeat offender and failure to cooperate and they did not get this just for taking air out of the balls

 

[skinsdad62]

i dont care about analogies or if there are crappy

show me on the field period

 

[skinsdad62]

one year wonder , soon he will be on VH1

 

[skinsdad62]

sorry but if you accept the unions weak ass standard then you have accepted that weak and feeble standard then its yours

and if the union , his lawyers bring that defense up they should all lose their collective jobs because i wouldnt accept that weak crap

 

[redskinsfan]

White, black or whatever - at least find a better comparison than Webb. That guy has not even thrown for 1000 yds in his entire career & was never considered to be the savior for anyone. Regardless of the last few years - and whatever may lie ahead for RG3 - he was considered to be a QB who could go a long way (and possibly still could) & - as mentioned previously - did have one spectacular season.

A better comparison - at least for now - would be a younger 1 year wonder that failed to subsequently produce. There have to be lots of examples along these lines. You might want to start by viewing this link:

NFL's greatest one-year wonders

A couple of potential candidates - Derek Anderson & Don Majkowski.

Anderson and the Magic Man didn't have the year that RGIII did. And Joe Webb did beat us. Remember that?

 

[redskinsfan]

Thing is, the every one does it factor does not hold water here. Yes, every one does adjust the pressure in their balls to a point that feels comfortable for the QB in question. But if that comfortable balls feeling falls outside the established upper and lower limits of ball manipulation, well then its a violation of the rules. Brady isn't being punished for adjusting his balls, he is being punished because once they were adjusted to his liking, they did not meet NFL balls regulations. And the punishment was as harsh as it is because he tried to cover it up after the fact.

But that is a relevant factor in terms of punishment. Remember that I'm not talking about whether he violated the rules -- I agree that he did. The question is what type of punishment he gets. And that depends on a variety of factors, not the least of which is what others do. That's important for issues of disparate treatment, i.e., singling him out. As for non-cooperation, if the league rules don't provide for that as a basis in terms of issuing punishment and/or if that wasn't part of the original set of allegations against him, that might be an issue as well.

It works the other way too. There are times when an arbitrator rules an employer wrongfully terminated the employee. In those cases, the union will ask for the maximum relief possible, i.e., that the employee be reinstated with full backpay. In terms of issuing a remedy (as opposed to punishment), an arbitrator will consider various factors in fashioning what the employee should get such as the employee's own culpability in getting terminated and whether the employee engaged in conduct others have engaged in before (and weren't dinged for). This is important to point out, once again, the issue of punishment: it's very different than the issue of whether there was a rule violation and, while there is certainly some overlap, between both issues, there are some major differences as well.

 

[redskinsfan]

sorry but if you accept the unions weak ass standard then you have accepted that weak and feeble standard then its yours

and if the union , his lawyers bring that defense up they should all lose their collective jobs because i wouldnt accept that weak crap

Dude, do you realize those are the legal principles that apply to Tom Brady and other union members covered by a CBA? How are they not going to raise those as issues?

 

[redskinsfan]

I think that your last statement about the cover up pretty much says it all. Since the Pats have a track record for less than ethical conduct I believe that a message is being sent that they can't continue to feel that they are somehow above the law at the risk of them doing similar in the future.

This country loves people who come clean about any wrongdoing & we are a forgiving society. What people really don't like are folks who feel that they are entitled & above it all. Like it or hate it - right or wrong - that is the feeling a lot of people have about Brady and the Pats.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between what the Pats have done and how that applies to Brady as an individual. Those are two different issues.