Off Topic Lounge

[Sharkinva]

No, it's not my intention to fight but to convey what I believe are pretty cogent arguments supporting my point of view. You keep going back to the issue of rule violations. I've already conceded that Brady was guilty. What I'd submit you don't get is how that mattered and, more significantly, speculation can't masquerade as logic and how larger issues of widespread violative conduct can't be ignored when meting out punishment against Brady. You and dad whiff big time on those issues and others.

I'm not going to go over, once again, the distinction between violation and determining what violation is appropriate to remedy the violation. More fundamentally, you haven't adduced any argument supporting your view why a quarter-season suspension somehow fits this violation. This is especially true given the points regarding the outcome determinative nature of the violations and the fact that just about everyone else does it. And to answer your question, the reason why everyone else does it is to try and get whatever competitive advantage they can. This is not to say that this will change a game's result in any way and provides the reason why this punishment is flawed. And that's because if everyone else does it, that's a fundamentally good reason to limit the penalty against Brady. Somehow, these very salient and overaching points elude you -- and dad. Also probative is the point dad just made in his last point about other factors playing into the result of a game. That simply strengthens my side of the debate here. It's almost nonsensical to argue with someone that can't see these points.

Almost every one speeds at some point. So the DMV should simple dismiss ALL speeding violations because every one does it, or just start sending out tickets to every licensed driver in the country.

The fact is Brady cheated, got caught. And 4 games and a first rounder is a slap on the wrist for an organization that has repeatedly cheated in some way shape or form.

 

[skinsdad62]

do it on the field , excuses are gone

 

[skinsdad62]

And you've made my case. Thank you!

i havent made your case . that is so foolish i cant believe it

you dont know how the outcome , result or whatever word parcel you want to use because there is no way to quantify if a wr held onto a ball that would have been dropped had the ball been regulation. does gronk score ? is brady's pass accurate enough ? would a RB had fumbled in a key situation

and again the thing you dodge is this , if there is no advantage to deflating the ball then why do it ? it doesnt pass the common sense test to break a rule that supposedly doesnt do anything to help you win and risk it

so why risk the punishment over "nothing "

the only sane conclusion one can come too is that IT DOES affect the outcome of a game . why lie if it doesnt "matter " because it does matter

the balls werent deflated for kicks . they were deflated to get an advantage over an opponent and maybe even more opponents because this has legs back to 2007 if you research it

sorry if you dont see that . brady is suspended for 4 games pending appeal . the NFL considers it more then BS so what more needs to be said

its masturbation if you do it to yourself and brady masterbated fully and he got caught

brady is to blame for his situtation and no one else is he got what his lying cover up ass deserved , george michaeled

 

[redskinsfan]

Almost every one speeds at some point. So the DMV should simple dismiss ALL speeding violations because every one does it, or just start sending out tickets to every licensed driver in the country.

The fact is Brady cheated, got caught. And 4 games and a first rounder is a slap on the wrist for an organization that has repeatedly cheated in some way shape or form.

The reason why your speeding ticket example doesn't hold water is based on what type of offense speeding represents. If you're speeding, you're causing unsafe driving conditions. The impact or the effect that this type of wrong has is far different than the near negligible impact or effect that doctoring a ball has given the circumstances we've been presented with. Please note the adverb clause that qualifies what I just said.

On the flip side, if Brady or someone else does something else to a ball that impacts his competitive advantage more than what we've seen, that's a different story. For instance, if a kicker decides to coat the ball with a substance that makes a ball more solid to make it travel further, that's much a different set of facts that what we've seen.

In Brady's case, it's no different than the George Brett pine tar incident. Brett clearly violated the pine tar rule on the books at the time. But because it had almost zero in terms giving him a competitive edge, MLB did the right thing in giving the finger to Billy Martin and the Yankees on that issue and ordering a replay of the game. Once again, and not to be a broken record, in Brett's case, there was a clear violation of the rule. However, when it came to issuing punishment, MLB recognized that Brett didn't gain any competitive edge in doing so. Thus, instead of making a huge to-do out of the issue, MLB quickly and quietly put the issue to bed.

Unfortunately, that's not what the NFL did. They made a huge public spectacle out of what happened. And because they did, they forced themselves in to a PR corner where issuing a slap on the hand wouldn't do. By doing so, they made themselves look, once again, stupid just as they did with the Ray Rice incident, other domestic violence issues, and drug offenses.

 

[redskinsfan]

i havent made your case . that is so foolish i cant believe it

you dont know how the outcome , result or whatever word parcel you want to use because there is no way to quantify if a wr held onto a ball that would have been dropped had the ball been regulation. does gronk score ? is brady's pass accurate enough ? would a RB had fumbled in a key situation

and again the thing you dodge is this , if there is no advantage to deflating the ball then why do it ? it doesnt pass the common sense test to break a rule that supposedly doesnt do anything to help you win and risk it

so why risk the punishment over "nothing "

the only sane conclusion one can come too is that IT DOES affect the outcome of a game . why lie if it doesnt "matter " because it does matter

the balls werent deflated for kicks . they were deflated to get an advantage over an opponent and maybe even more opponents because this has legs back to 2007 if you research it

sorry if you dont see that . brady is suspended for 4 games pending appeal . the NFL considers it more then BS so what more needs to be said

its masturbation if you do it to yourself and brady masterbated fully and he got caught

brady is to blame for his situtation and no one else is he got what his lying cover up ass deserved , george michaeled

You are dead wrong, dad. You made my case and either didn't know it, won't admit to it -- or both. By conceding the issue of whether Brady gained a competitive advantage is clouded by a menagerie of factors other than his deflation of the balls, you basically agree that it's completely speculative as to what effect, if any, his rule violation had on the outcome of a game. This is significant for a number of reasons, one being that if you can't tie this into any competitive edge he gained, which then makes it nothing different than the pine tar incident with George Brett.

This also is important for a secondary reason. If you can't tie this to any competitive disadvantage, which you can't, and this is something just about everyone is doing, how you can then single out Brady for such a harsh punishment? That's exactly the thinking MLB came up with when confronted with that pine tar incident. I'm not saying that you don't punish Brady at all, especially in view of his failure to cooperate. But a quarter-long season suspension is absurd.

And are you going back to the comical point that deflating balls does, in fact, affect the outcome of a game? Did you just miss our exchange about the 45-7 Patriot romp over the Colts? Try addressing that one. That's the game where this whole issue arose out of. Tell us, dad, how, if Brady didn't deflate the balls, the Colts would've somehow transformed a 38 point deficit into some type of win.

 

[Sharkinva]

Sorry dude, if you cheated a little or a lot, you still cheated. The Patriots have a pattern of cheating at this point. As many have said, if it really didnt matter at all, why cheat in the first place?

Personally I think the penalty was to lite. Brady knowingly cheated, and apparently has been doing so for a while. Ray Rice knocked a woman out. Brady SHOULD have gotten a year, Belicheat should have gotten a year.. .AND they should still lose the 1st rounder.

Going forward the league should have 12 balls on game day not to be handled by either team.

 

[redskinsfan]

do it on the field , excuses are gone

There is no doubt about that. And let me be clear: I was a big RG3 supporter early on, but my support for him has since waned. He's an egotistical, self-centered diva that believes the can win doing it his way. However, I'm not going to let that get in the way of objectively assessing his upside and potential. He's clearly got a lot of that. And I'm willing to wait to allow both he and the coaching staff to try and tap that.

 

[redskinsfan]

Sorry dude, if you cheated a little or a lot, you still cheated. The Patriots have a pattern of cheating at this point. As many have said, if it really didnt matter at all, why cheat in the first place?

Personally I think the penalty was to lite. Brady knowingly cheated, and apparently has been doing so for a while. Ray Rice knocked a woman out. Brady SHOULD have gotten a year, Belicheat should have gotten a year.. .AND they should still lose the 1st rounder.

Going forward the league should have 12 balls on game day not to be handled by either team.

Okay, if cheating is cheating, murder is murder right? If that's the case, why have gradations of murder in penal codes all across the country?

 

[Sharkinva]

Okay, if cheating is cheating, murder is murder right? If that's the case, why have gradations of murder in penal codes all across the country?

You asking the wrong person on that one. I could care less the reason. IF you intentionally kill some one your freedom should be forfeit for the rest of your life. Forget degrees of Murder. And I dont believe in the death penalty. You kill some one intentionally, you should rot in the worst prison we can find until in fact you die, in that self same cage. NO parole, no forgiveness. And no short way out of your punishment by death penalty.

 

[redskinsfan]

You asking the wrong person on that one. I could care less the reason. IF you intentionally kill some one your freedom should be forfeit for the rest of your life. Forget degrees of Murder. And I dont believe in the death penalty. You kill some one intentionally, you should rot in the worst prison we can find until in fact you die, in that self same cage. NO parole, no forgiveness. And no short way out of your punishment by death penalty.

With respect, you'd be dead wrong in that assessment. There are plenty of gradations of murder ranging from premeditated killing supported by special circumstances that will get you the death penalty all the way to involuntary manslaughter that will you get one year in prison just as Donte Stallworth got when he killed pedestrians while driving under the influence. As you know, Stallworth is free as a jailbird right now.

Layering murder offenses teaches us something here: not all murders are alike and the same is true with cheating. You can say someone is a cheater and violated a rule. But when it comes down to issuing a punishment, you look at a vast array of other circumstances. Where the circumstances show, as here, that there was no competitive advantage to be had, you're basically in pine tar incident territory.

The fallacy in you and dad's thinking is that because he cheated (and because he was trying to get a competitive advantage), he actually got one. In fact, he did not. If you don't believe that, please try and argue that the deflated balls would've affected the outcome of the Pats 45-7 rout of the Colts. You can't. Neither can dad, nor can anyone else. In truth, trying to get a competitive edge by deflating footballs is stupid. You really don't get one. While Brady definitely deserves to be punished for violating a rule, punishing Brady or anyone else a quarter of a season for something he didn't get an advantage for -- especially when everyone else is doing the same thing -- is far too excessive.

 

[Sharkinva]

With respect, you'd be dead wrong in that assessment. There are plenty of gradations of murder ranging from premeditated killing supported by special circumstances that will get you the death penalty all the way to involuntary manslaughter that will you get one year in prison just as Donte Stallworth got when he killed pedestrians while driving under the influence. As you know, Stallworth is free as a jailbird right now.

Layering murder offenses teaches us something here: not all murders are alike and the same is true with cheating. You can say someone is a cheater and violated a rule. But when it comes down to issuing a punishment, you look at a vast array of other circumstances. Where the circumstances show, as here, that there was no competitive advantage to be had, you're basically in pine tar incident territory.

The fallacy in you and dad's thinking is that because he cheated (and because he was trying to get a competitive advantage), he actually got one. In fact, he did not. If you don't believe that, please try and argue that the deflated balls would've affected the outcome of the Pats 45-7 rout of the Colts. You can't. Neither can dad, nor can anyone else. In truth, trying to get a competitive edge by deflating footballs is stupid. You really don't get one. While Brady definitely deserves to be punished for violating a rule, punishing Brady or anyone else a quarter of a season for something he didn't get an advantage for -- especially when everyone else is doing the same thing -- is far too excessive.

First of all you said MURDER. That means you intentionally and willfully took some one life. Be it spur of the moment, or a planned out act... in my book you dont deserve your freedom. Manslaughter is generally considered the act of taking some ones life without intention of doing so and usually in extreme circumstances. I get the shit happens defense. Like if some one breaks into my house and I shoot them and they die, I had no intention of killing them and thus should NOT be charged with Murder. But if I get into a bar fight, go to the car and pull out the .44 and shot the guy... well yes in that case I should be locked away. Because simply put, if i do a year, whats to stop me from killing some one elses child.

Thats the real problem with our legal system as a whole. We try and curve grade crimes. I guess you would call me a Hienliner. And if you dont know what that is, READ Starship Troopers, and process some of the social political ideas he believed in and wove into his story lines.

But back to Brady, it matters not if he actually got an advantage, fact is he was TRYING to get one in a manner that is against the rules. thus he cheated. And if you dont think ball pressure can be a competative advantage.. I suggest you go buy two balls, inflate them both to regulation. But one in a cooler full of ice for three hours, and leave the other out in the sun. theow them both and tell me which one FEELS better?? Which one are you able to grip better, and which one are you more accurate with. IM willing to bet its the one from the cooler.

 

[redskinsfan]

First of all you said MURDER. That means you intentionally and willfully took some one life. Be it spur of the moment, or a planned out act... in my book you dont deserve your freedom. Manslaughter is generally considered the act of taking some ones life without intention of doing so and usually in extreme circumstances. I get the shit happens defense. Like if some one breaks into my house and I shoot them and they die, I had no intention of killing them and thus should NOT be charged with Murder. But if I get into a bar fight, go to the car and pull out the .44 and shot the guy... well yes in that case I should be locked away. Because simply put, if i do a year, whats to stop me from killing some one elses child.

Thats the real problem with our legal system as a whole. We try and curve grade crimes. I guess you would call me a Hienliner. And if you dont know what that is, READ Starship Troopers, and process some of the social political ideas he believed in and wove into his story lines.

But back to Brady, it matters not if he actually got an advantage, fact is he was TRYING to get one in a manner that is against the rules. thus he cheated. And if you dont think ball pressure can be a competative advantage.. I suggest you go buy two balls, inflate them both to regulation. But one in a cooler full of ice for three hours, and leave the other out in the sun. theow them both and tell me which one FEELS better?? Which one are you able to grip better, and which one are you more accurate with. IM willing to bet its the one from the cooler.

Once again, you are conflating to very different issues. The issue of Brady's attempt to gain a competitive advantage is what lawyers call the inchoate crime of attempt. Everyone would agree he's guilty of that crime. But if he didn't get a competitive advantage (and by that I mean he got an edge which changed the outcome of a game), and, more importantly, the other QB is doing the same thing, how do you punish the guy four games for doing so?

And don't try and change the debate here by trying to distinguish murder from other crimes. If you don't like murder, let's try insider trading or wire fraud. Those are basically "cheating" offenses too. A lot of defendants get convicted for violating those laws, but guess what? When it comes down to issuing punishment, a judge will look to a variety of factors, such as whether the defendant got an advantage (e.g., profited from the act). Like Brady, some would-be insider traders will do their best in getting an 'in' for the info they seek by trying to pull of something that will never get them their desired result. Most of those guys will get a light sentence and get put on probation.

Same with Brady. Again, how is what Brady did any different than what George Brett did when putting more pine tar on his bat? Whatever motivation he had in doing so, it clearly didn't give him an advantage that made him hit better or change the course of a game.

Try answering my question: what effect, if any, did Brady's ball deflation have on the Colts game?

 

[Sharkinva]

Once again, you are conflating to very different issues. The issue of Brady's attempt to gain a competitive advantage is what lawyers call the inchoate crime of attempt. Everyone would agree he's guilty of that crime. But if he didn't get a competitive advantage (and by that I mean he got an edge which changed the outcome of a game), and, more importantly, the other QB is doing the same thing, how do you punish the guy four games for doing so?

And don't try and change the debate here by trying to distinguish murder from other crimes. If you don't like murder, let's try insider trading or wire fraud. Those are basically "cheating" offenses too. A lot of defendants get convicted for violating those laws, but guess what? When it comes down to issuing punishment, a judge will look to a variety of factors, such as whether the defendant got an advantage (e.g., profited from the act). Like Brady, some would-be insider traders will do their best in getting an 'in' for the info they seek by trying to pull of something that will never get them their desired result. Most of those guys will get a light sentence and get put on probation.

Same with Brady. Again, how is what Brady did any different than what George Brett did when putting more pine tar on his bat? Whatever motivation he had in doing so, it clearly didn't give him an advantage that made him hit better or change the course of a game.

Try answering my question: what effect, if any, did Brady's ball deflation have on the Colts game?

I take it you are a defense lawyer of some sort. And again I will say, that is a big part of whats wrong with this countries legal system. Brady isnt being punished for his results, but for his intent. Which is RIGHT. IF you tried to cheat, no matter if it helped you or not, you cheated. And should be punished accordingly. SO yes some one who TRIES to murder some one but fails, should give up their freedom for the rest of their life. So some one who TRIES to cheat should get punished as if their attempt had succeeded. Other wise the next guy who tries to cheat figures he can try it and only get into REAL trouble if he actually gains and advantage AND gets caught.

 

[redskinsfan]

I take it you are a defense lawyer of some sort. And again I will say, that is a big part of whats wrong with this countries legal system. Brady isnt being punished for his results, but for his intent. Which is RIGHT. IF you tried to cheat, no matter if it helped you or not, you cheated. And should be punished accordingly. SO yes some one who TRIES to murder some one but fails, should give up their freedom for the rest of their life. So some one who TRIES to cheat should get punished as if their attempt had succeeded. Other wise the next guy who tries to cheat figures he can try it and only get into REAL trouble if he actually gains and advantage AND gets caught.

I'm not a criminal defense lawyer; I actually practice labor and employment law but also branch out into things like antitrust and RICO. We can debate about inchoate offenses -- which is a fancy way of saying crimes of attempt. However you can want to cut it, attempting to murder someone is viewed -- for better or worse -- as a far less serious crime than if you actually did the deed. While this again somewhat conflates the issues of rule violation and the punishment that is issued for it, this does, at least in part, inform my view on Brady's offense.

But there are other factors as well, not the least of which is the fact that just about every other QB does it. And when they do it, they basically won't change zip when doing so. Viewed against this backdrop, the fact that Brady may have technically violated a rule makes this the NFL equivalent of George Brett. There are some optics that aren't good for the NFL when it comes to this. One big one is that despite not getting an advantage of any sort, Brady is attempting to get one with the thought of changing the course of a game. But we circle back again to the fact that he really can't and that this is a widespread phenomenon in the league.

So, let me ask you this then: every other QB does this same thing. Should each of them also get a quarter-season suspension? To ask this absurd question is really to answer it. But this is the conundrum the idiotic league had coming to it. I realize that a part of the penalty involves Brady not cooperating. But the big issue is the ball deflation.

Are you willing to sanction an effort to investigate every other QB? I'd love to hear your answer to that.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'm not a criminal defense lawyer; I actually practice labor and employment law but also branch out into things like antitrust and RICO. We can debate about inchoate offenses -- which is a fancy way of saying crimes of attempt. However you can want to cut it, attempting to murder someone is viewed -- for better or worse -- as a far less serious crime than if you actually did the deed. While this again somewhat conflates the issues of rule violation and the punishment that is issued for it, this does, at least in part, inform my view on Brady's offense.

But there are other factors as well, not the least of which is the fact that just about every other QB does it. And when they do it, they basically won't change zip when doing so. Viewed against this backdrop, the fact that Brady may have technically violated a rule makes this the NFL equivalent of George Brett. There are some optics that aren't good for the NFL when it comes to this. One big one is that despite not getting an advantage of any sort, Brady is attempting to get one with the thought of changing the course of a game. But we circle back again to the fact that he really can't and that this is a widespread phenomenon in the league.

So, let me ask you this then: every other QB does this same thing. Should each of them also get a quarter-season suspension? To ask this absurd question is really to answer it. But this is the conundrum the idiotic league had coming to it. I realize that a part of the penalty involves Brady not cooperating. But the big issue is the ball deflation.

Are you willing to sanction an effort to investigate every other QB? I'd love to hear your answer to that.

OK.. full disclosure here.... 2 years of pre law, and 2 years of actual classes before I decided our legal system was a joke and not worth the stress.

Now that we got that out of the way... to answer your question. Yes every QB that is caught in any way shape or form attempting to gain a competitive advantage in a way that has been determined to be against the rules should be suspended. B that by use of illegal performance enhancers, doctoring balls in a way that has been determined cheating, watching film of defensive signals obtained illegally. If you can prove intent to bend the rules, I fully believe it should be treated as if you succeeded. The way to stop people from cheating, is to treat intent just as harshly as if you actually succeeded.

 

[redskinsfan]

OK.. full disclosure here.... 2 years of pre law, and 2 years of actual classes before I decided our legal system was a joke and not worth the stress.

Now that we got that out of the way... to answer your question. Yes every QB that is caught in any way shape or form attempting to gain a competitive advantage in a way that has been determined to be against the rules should be suspended. B that by use of illegal performance enhancers, doctoring balls in a way that has been determined cheating, watching film of defensive signals obtained illegally. If you can prove intent to bend the rules, I fully believe it should be treated as if you succeeded. The way to stop people from cheating, is to treat intent just as harshly as if you actually succeeded.

Well, I don't think anyone needs any legal background to figure our system is screwed, right? And I disagree with the attempt offenses. If you make them the same, then perps have every incentive to carry out the deed if the punishment will be the same.

As for our issue, if everyone is doing it, but no advantage is being obtained, what's the big deal? You basically set yourself up to suspending every QB a quarter of a season for basically nothing. What the NFL should've realized was that this was their version of the pine tar incident. For a fix of this situation, they should've considered simply instituting rules wherein the NFL was responsible for balls. Now, the question will be why they don't look at Russell Wilson (who's got some awfully small hands)? Or Aaron Rodgers? How about Big Ben? If they don't, why won't they look at anyone else?

 

[Sharkinva]

Well, I don't think anyone needs any legal background to figure our system is screwed, right? And I disagree with the attempt offenses. If you make them the same, then perps have every incentive to carry out the deed if the punishment will be the same.

As for our issue, if everyone is doing it, but no advantage is being obtained, what's the big deal? You basically set yourself up to suspending every QB a quarter of a season for basically nothing. What the NFL should've realized was that this was their version of the pine tar incident. For a fix of this situation, they should've considered simply instituting rules wherein the NFL was responsible for balls. Now, the question will be why they don't look at Russell Wilson (who's got some awfully small hands)? Or Aaron Rodgers? How about Big Ben? If they don't, why won't they look at anyone else?

Again you are not taking into account prior acts of cheating by the team as a whole. Kind of like expunging a juveniles record when he turns 18. Because the team as a whole has a record of cheating, the NFL was right to err on the side of believing this was intentional and to punish them harshly. This isnt like locking a kid up for a first offense. The Patricheats are repeat offenders at this point which is why i think the NFL actually should have thrown the book at them.


Also as for intent carrying the same punishment as success, if you thought you would spend five years in prison for trying to steal a car, even if you failed to actually steal it.... would it not to some degree deter you from even trying??

 

[redskinsfan]

Again you are not taking into account prior acts of cheating by the team as a whole. Kind of like expunging a juveniles record when he turns 18. Because the team as a whole has a record of cheating, the NFL was right to err on the side of believing this was intentional and to punish them harshly. This isnt like locking a kid up for a first offense. The Patricheats are repeat offenders at this point which is why i think the NFL actually should have thrown the book at them.


Also as for intent carrying the same punishment as success, if you thought you would spend five years in prison for trying to steal a car, even if you failed to actually steal it.... would it not to some degree deter you from even trying??

The team thing is different from Brady as an individual. As for you hypothetical, maybe or maybe not. But that's the way the law is drawn up. I can see your point, and I'm sure you and I could cite many, many other crackpot examples that our system of "justice" is riddled with.

 

[Stymietee]

Did the NFL just give future opponents reason to continually complain about the condition of footballs tailored to one QB's liking and not the other?........Or will there be much tighter controls on game balls?

Either way, the game just got worse! In the first instance, there will be more investigations and allegations, most will be true but I'll bet, aimed at gaining a competitive edge. In the latter, newer, slicker, non-doctored footballs will lead to a whole host of comedic though costly errors.

 

[Sharkinva]

The team thing is different from Brady as an individual. As for you hypothetical, maybe or maybe not. But that's the way the law is drawn up. I can see your point, and I'm sure you and I could cite many, many other crackpot examples that our system of "justice" is riddled with.

Again, I think the team should be slammed, and I find it hard to accept that Brady did not gain from prior acts of cheating. IM willing to bet that after Hardy and Rice, most players will think long and hard before they pimp slap the baby momma no matter how irritating she might be.