Off Topic Lounge

[redskinsfan]

I predicted about 4 games.

Should have bet that somewhere.

The punishment is about right.
I think the monetary fine and draft pick forfeiture also disciplined the organization correctly.

I'm ready to move on, but will stick around for the laughs.

That's a quarter of a season for something that didn't affect the outcome of the Colts game. If it was something like spying, that would be a whole different issue altogether.

 

[skinsdad62]

You haven't told me how it affected the result. How can you not get that?

again for the millioneth time i did by the factors stated above . if on team can grip the ball better it has an advanatage hence the RESULT is skewed period end of story and no amount of double talk will change it

 

[redskinsfan]

Calm down there big fella.

You are right, Griffin has played like crap. This is not news. But here's what he can do that Joe Webb can not do:

Hit what he is throwing at.

As I said the problems Griffin has MAY be correctable. Everything you just described fits under the heading "correctable". So there is still a slim chance. I'm not claiming it will happen, I agree it's a long shot, but it's at least possible.

With a guy like Joe Webb all the coaching and experience in the world won't change the fact that he simply can not deliver the ball. And that is job #1. He can make the perfect read, the perfect drop, perfect mechanics but if the ball is behind the receiver, which was often the case with Poor Joe Webb, none of the other stuff matters.

So you have one QB who is a 3 legged race horse, he never had a chance due to his limitations. You have another QB who has all the tools but needs to learn to play the position. To use your line if you can't see the difference between the 2 then I can't help you.

You're never going to convince him of anything. Unfortunately, dad doesn't seem to understand upside and potential. By all accounts, RGIII has a immense wealth of physical and mental talent. He just needs the willingness to learn a new system and a coach who can phase him into it. The reason why his production was "crap" the prior two seasons resulted from a number of factors, not the least of which was the fact that he was forced to learn a system he couldn't handle overnight.

 

[skinsdad62]

That's a quarter of a season for something that didn't affect the outcome of the Colts game. If it was something like spying, that would be a whole different issue altogether.

well that is where you are wrong . the cover up is why , the history is why and how many times did a result get affected by the cheating in other games since 2007

you want to limit things when in fact the punishment includes ALL of those factors and not some selected ones you want to adhere too

 

[redskinsfan]

again for the millioneth time i did by the factors stated above . if on team can grip the ball better it has an advanatage hence the RESULT is skewed period end of story and no amount of double talk will change it

So, I guess if the balls were properly inflated, the Patriots would've lost? Instead of winning 45-7, the result would've been something like Colts 28-13? Are you kidding?

Please, oh please, tell me what the final score would've been had the balls been properly inflated.

 

[redskinsfan]

well that is where you are wrong . the cover up is why , the history is why and how many times did a result get affected by the cheating in other games since 2007

you want to limit things when in fact the punishment includes ALL of those factors and not some selected ones you want to adhere too

Wrong. I discussed the cover up as well. In just about every jurisdiction out there, that's a really minor offense too. The only time it's a big issue is when someone has an agenda, i.e., Nixon.

 

[skinsdad62]

So, I guess if the balls were properly inflated, the Patriots would've lost? Instead of winning 45-7, the result would've been something like Colts 28-13? Are you kidding?

Please, oh please, tell me what the final score would've been had the balls been properly inflated.

who knows ? we will never know

if the score was 45 to 17 the result is different because 45 to 7 is different then 45 to 17

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

You're never going to convince him of anything. Unfortunately, dad doesn't seem to understand upside and potential. By all accounts, RGIII has a immense wealth of physical and mental talent. He just needs the willingness to learn a new system and a coach who can phase him into it. The reason why his production was "crap" the prior two seasons resulted from a number of factors, not the least of which was the fact that he was forced to learn a system he couldn't handle overnight.

Dad's a stubborn old guy for sure but then again so am I. The funny thing is we shared the same opinion on Griff. We were both 2 of his last defenders, then Griffin's play has turned us both south. The difference is Dad acts like a butt hurt scorned ex-lover who fails to see an ounce of positives in Griffin. While I agree it's a long shot that he will ever get it to say that he is no better than Joe Webb, a guy who literally can't throw the ball at close to the NFL level and never had a chance, is ridiculous. Last time I checked Joe Webb did not win Offensive Rookie of the Year.

 

[skinsdad62]

and again what about closer games that this happened in ?

 

[redskinsfan]

who knows ? we will never know

if the score was 45 to 17 the result is different because 45 to 7 is different then 45 to 17

But that doesn't change the result!

 

[redskinsfan]

and again what about closer games that this happened in ?

What about them? The real issue arose out of the Colts game. And if you want to talk other games, why not investigate every other team and raise the same issue.

If the NFL wanted to nail Brady or anyone else for that matter, they would used a much closer game and more egregious circumstances. Instead, they took what otherwise was a minstrel show of a 45-7 rout and blew it up into some Grand Inquisition. The fact that the Colts played with doctored balls shows just about every other team does the same thing. What you're basically talking about is a slippery slope. And it goes right back to the point about consideration of the factor that everyone else does it.

 

[redskinsfan]

Dad's a stubborn old guy for sure but then again so am I. The funny thing is we shared the same opinion on Griff. We were both 2 of his last defenders, then Griffin's play has turned us both south. The difference is Dad acts like a butt hurt scorned ex-lover who fails to see an ounce of positives in Griffin. While I agree it's a long shot that he will ever get it to say that he is no better than Joe Webb, a guy who literally can't throw the ball at close to the NFL level and never had a chance, is ridiculous. Last time I checked Joe Webb did not win Offensive Rookie of the Year.

Exactly. The fact that RGIII won ROY but did so by throwing for a remarkable 20 /5 TD-INT ratio is amazing. While he did a lot of that because of his legs, those passing stats were a product of him doing so from the pocket as well. There have been players with plenty of talent that failed because they turned out to be head cases. Jeff George is one shining example of that. But RGIII isn't JG. At least not yet.

Like it or not, we've got to give him a chance to succeed again. And he's got to give us 100% effort in doing what he's told. Unfortunately, those results won't start showing overnight. That's why Scotty picked up Griff's option.

 

[Lonewate44]

But that doesn't change the result!

You are crazy... Of course it can change the results..maybe not the colts game..probably not the colts game...but others it could gave...dude called himself the deflator meaning he did it a bunch...maybe the close Baltimore game the week before.....by having a deflated ball in the many games before...as dad said...better grip...less fumbles...less turnovers...more wins in regular season to make playoffs... Or how about the psycologiical advantage qb..was..and rb had to help perform better...face it..they wouldn't have done it...if it didn't help win games..ask yourself this....why knowingly cheat if it doesn't help win games?? Just for the fun of it?

 

[skinsdad62]

Dad's a stubborn old guy for sure but then again so am I. The funny thing is we shared the same opinion on Griff. We were both 2 of his last defenders, then Griffin's play has turned us both south. The difference is Dad acts like a butt hurt scorned ex-lover who fails to see an ounce of positives in Griffin. While I agree it's a long shot that he will ever get it to say that he is no better than Joe Webb, a guy who literally can't throw the ball at close to the NFL level and never had a chance, is ridiculous. Last time I checked Joe Webb did not win Offensive Rookie of the Year.

i am not "butt hurt " but if that makes you feel better then go for it . i gave him my standard 3 years i give anyone we draft . ANYONE ! dont believe me , ask the long term posters , my standards dont change , i gave JC the 3 years , ask shark about that

again wrap yourself around silly comparisons all you want . he is a bust period at this point

as for potential that ship has sailed redskinsfan. time to say what he is and not what abstract potential he may show

i say do it on the field and then i will change but Rg3 has used up the potential card

 

[skinsdad62]

But that doesn't change the result!

45 to 17 is different then 45 to 7 and that is going more toward your direction

who is to know what the result would have been because so many factors could have been altered by cheating

 

[redskinsfan]

You are crazy... Of course it can change the results..maybe not the colts game..probably not the colts game...but others it could gave...dude called himself the deflator meaning he did it a bunch...maybe the close Baltimore game the week before.....by having a deflated ball in the many games before...as dad said...better grip...less fumbles...less turnovers...more wins in regular season to make playoffs... Or how about the psycologiical advantage qb..was..and rb had to help perform better...face it..they wouldn't have done it...if it didn't help win games..ask yourself this....why knowingly cheat if it doesn't help win games?? Just for the fun of it?

The fact that he got a better grip doesn't mean that it wouldn't have changed the result. If you've got evidence beyond speculation that it would have been outcome determinative, I'd love to hear it. On a more general level, the Wells investigation disclosed that just about everyone doctors balls. If you're going to investigate Brady and the Patriots, why not do it for everyone else? Let's talk about the Colts game in particular. As it turned out, they too were playing with altered balls.

Thus, as we all found out during the Wells investigation, if you're going to turn to closer games, each team would have balls that have been tampered with. Like I said in my prior post, this sends you going down a slippery slope and shows you why the "everyone else does it" rationale makes a whole lot of sense here in connection with the punishment. You can't track down every QB and kicker that changed balls and try to re-run every (close) game to decide how it may have been different despite the fact that both teams participated in the same wrong.

This then raises the larger issue of why the NFL made such a big deal of this in the first place and made Ted Wells the Grand Inquisitor who ran up a seven-figure legal bill in an investigation that sent the NFL down another PR rabbit hole. They should've treated this like MLB did with that pine tar incident. Yes, there was a violation; no, it wasn't a big deal.

 

[redskinsfan]

45 to 17 is different then 45 to 7 and that is going more toward your direction

who is to know what the result would have been because so many factors could have been altered by cheating

And you've made my case. Thank you!

 

[redskinsfan]

i am not "butt hurt " but if that makes you feel better then go for it . i gave him my standard 3 years i give anyone we draft . ANYONE ! dont believe me , ask the long term posters , my standards dont change , i gave JC the 3 years , ask shark about that

again wrap yourself around silly comparisons all you want . he is a bust period at this point

as for potential that ship has sailed redskinsfan. time to say what he is and not what abstract potential he may show

i say do it on the field and then i will change but Rg3 has used up the potential card

The problem is that one of those three years, he was a superstar. The other two years are obviously problematic but can be chalked up to fixable things. Whether they'll be fixed is another story, which goes to the potential and upside point we've raised before. A large part of this will be whether RGIII can tamp down his ego and will listen not to family members but to his coaches. If so, he can be great again. If not, he'll be a Jeff George.

 

[Lonewate44]

And you've made my case. Thank you!

Its obvious you aren't seeing what me and dad have said...I think u just wanna fight...whatever.. Don't want to hear everyone does it because they don't...but u never adresesd my question....if there was no benefit to letting the air out...why would they do it..

Separate....part of the suspension arose from not being honest and forthwirght with wells...by not Turing over evidence and witnesses...violation of NFL rules...my question..if not guilty why didn't tom give them the texts and emails...that was a huge issue for the NFL...the suspension was for both action and not turning over the Tex like he was supposed to it was a two-pronged suspension

 

[redskinsfan]

Its obvious you aren't seeing what me and dad have said...I think u just wanna fight...whatever.. Don't want to hear everyone does it because they don't...but u never adresesd my question....if there was no benefit to letting the air out...why would they do it..

Separate....part of the suspension arose from not being honest and forthwirght with wells...by not Turing over evidence and witnesses...violation of NFL rules...my question..if not guilty why didn't tom give them the texts and emails...that was a huge issue for the NFL...the suspension was for both action and not turning over the Tex like he was supposed to it was a two-pronged suspension

No, it's not my intention to fight but to convey what I believe are pretty cogent arguments supporting my point of view. You keep going back to the issue of rule violations. I've already conceded that Brady was guilty. What I'd submit you don't get is how that mattered and, more significantly, speculation can't masquerade as logic and how larger issues of widespread violative conduct can't be ignored when meting out punishment against Brady. You and dad whiff big time on those issues and others.

I'm not going to go over, once again, the distinction between violation and determining what violation is appropriate to remedy the violation. More fundamentally, you haven't adduced any argument supporting your view why a quarter-season suspension somehow fits this violation. This is especially true given the points regarding the outcome determinative nature of the violations and the fact that just about everyone else does it. And to answer your question, the reason why everyone else does it is to try and get whatever competitive advantage they can. This is not to say that this will change a game's result in any way and provides the reason why this punishment is flawed. And that's because if everyone else does it, that's a fundamentally good reason to limit the penalty against Brady. Somehow, these very salient and overaching points elude you -- and dad. Also probative is the point dad just made in his last point about other factors playing into the result of a game. That simply strengthens my side of the debate here. It's almost nonsensical to argue with someone that can't see these points.