Niners need a hired gun on defense

[NinerSickness]

I named off key examples in Bowman and Boone who were both low key players until they actually got some playing time.

Those are extremely rare exceptions to the rule. Expecting to hit the lottery on all-pro' caliber players again in the 4th round or w/ an UDFA is ridiculous.

I'm not going to play the 'who then' game with you and go through every player on the roster... You never know who might emerge next season. For all you know, Quinton Dial could be the guy that makes the next jump...

As I eluded to before there's a huge difference between might and probably will. And if you're not going to name another starting position other than FS, NT or flanker then you're just blowing hot air claiming I'm "too stubborn" to acknowledge players are going to get better.

Further more, you are advocating adding a high priced FA or "hired gun" who are clearly in decline themselves (outside of Clowney) to bolster this aging and declining roster. Your arguments make little sense.

Try to follow along. My argument: the 2014 49ers' overall talent level is trending downwards. Your counter argument: a player FROM ANOTHER FRIGGN' TEAM is in the declining level of his career, therefore that wouldn't be an improvement relative to the empty roster spot he would subsequently fill. In other words: Julius Peppers can't help the 49ers improve because he wouldn't be as good as he was on the Bears in 2013.

 

[imac_21]

As I eluded to before there's a huge difference between might and probably will. And if you're not going to name another starting position other than FS, NT or flanker then you're just blowing hot air claiming I'm "too stubborn" to acknowledge players are going to get better.

There's also a difference between eluding something, and alluding to something.

Try to follow along. My argument: the 2014 49ers' overall talent level is trending downwards. Your counter argument: a player FROM ANOTHER FRIGGN' TEAM is in the declining level of his career, therefore that wouldn't be an improvement relative to the empty roster spot he would subsequently fill. In other words: Julius Peppers can't help the 49ers improve because he wouldn't be as good as he was on the Bears in 2013.

But only the overall talent while focusing strictly on the 22 starters on offense and defense, but ignoring the quarterback position (it's not important anyway) and the majority of the secondary. Also by ignoring the fact that the best WR on the team and one of the best pass rushers in the league both missed significant time.

 

[NinerSickness]

But only the overall talent while focusing strictly on the 22 starters on offense and defense, but ignoring the quarterback position (it's not important anyway) and the majority of the secondary. Also by ignoring the fact that the best WR on the team and one of the best pass rushers in the league both missed significant time.

I didn't ignore the secondary issue. We thought the question marks next to those positions was self-explanatory. I can't very well compare last year's starter to next year's starter not knowing who that's going to be.

And fine; since you're intent on bringing up the QB issue I'll go there. Sarcastically saying "It's not important anyway" is nonsense. Of course it's important. But Kaepernick has shown that he's incapable of learning from his past mistakes. He's an instincts-only, one-read, tuck & run, downright stupid QB (relative to the football intelligence / thinking speed of most starting QBs). That's why I don't think he'll ever get better than the 2012 / 2013 version of Kaepernick. Some QBs simply don't get better with age. This is also why I think the Niners need to get a star on defense to put that unit over the top in order to make up for the inadequacy the Niners have at QB. Win like the Buccs in 2002.

As far as Crabby & Aldon missing time goes: They played in the playoffs. That's the barometer I'm using.

 

[-AC-]

Those are extremely rare exceptions to the rule. Expecting to hit the lottery on all-pro' caliber players again in the 4th round or w/ an UDFA is ridiculous.



As I eluded to before there's a huge difference between might and probably will. And if you're not going to name another starting position other than FS, NT or flanker then you're just blowing hot air claiming I'm "too stubborn" to acknowledge players are going to get better.



Try to follow along. My argument: the 2014 49ers' overall talent level is trending downwards. Your counter argument: a player FROM ANOTHER FRIGGN' TEAM is in the declining level of his career, therefore that wouldn't be an improvement relative to the empty roster spot he would subsequently fill. In other words: Julius Peppers can't help the 49ers improve because he wouldn't be as good as he was on the Bears in 2013.

What are you talking about? Its rare that they add talent to the roster every season or that someone emerges every season from the depth chart to make an impact? Reid last season, Boone the year before that, Bowman the year before that? Thats just going back three seasons. And I'm not just talking about all-pro's, I'm talking about real contributers like Boone. Its not rare at all (unless you have your blinders on to suit your argument)...

You go on about how this team is in decline when it comes to talent, and you mention Justin Smith. But then your solution is to add another declining DE in Julius Peppers? Not only would his cap number screw us in the short term, but it probably cripples us in the long term. And for what? A guy who had 7.5 sacks last season in a 4-3 defense and who has played at RDE for the last six seasons, coincidentally the same spot as Justin Smith...

You're the one that needs to follow along, this isn't John Madden Football...

 

[-AC-]

I didn't ignore the secondary issue. We thought the question marks next to those positions was self-explanatory. I can't very well compare last year's starter to next year's starter not knowing who that's going to be.

And fine; since you're intent on bringing up the QB issue I'll go there. Sarcastically saying "It's not important anyway" is nonsense. Of course it's important. But Kaepernick has shown that he's incapable of learning from his past mistakes. He's an instincts-only, one-read, tuck & run, downright stupid QB (relative to the football intelligence / thinking speed of most starting QBs). That's why I don't think he'll ever get better than the 2012 / 2013 version of Kaepernick. Some QBs simply don't get better with age. This is also why I think the Niners need to get a star on defense to put that unit over the top in order to make up for the inadequacy the Niners have at QB. Win like the Buccs in 2002.

As far as Crabby & Aldon missing time goes: They played in the playoffs. That's the barometer I'm using.

It still amazes me that you can take such a small sample size and make such one sided statements. You are so fixated on the negatives that you literally can't see the positives. Not only that, but you can't even rationalize the circumstances of him coming out of college with no real background in playing in an NFL style offense, or the fact that his current offensive coordinator has his own issues on how to put together a decent passing attack...

 

[NinerSickness]

What are you talking about? Its rare that they add talent to the roster every season or that someone emerges every season from the depth chart to make an impact?

It's rare (extremely rare) for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round picks or UDFAs to emerge as all-pro' caliber players.

Reid last season

19th pick overall. As a safety. That's kind of like the safety equivalent of a top 5 pick.

And I'm not just talking about all-pro's, I'm talking about real contributers like Boone. Its not rare at all (unless you have your blinders on to suit your argument)...

You know what's not rare at all? Teams making it to the Super Bowl and being FAR less talented 2 years later. Ask yourself this question and don't answer with what MIGHT occur; go by what usually happens. The Niners have like 8 million dollars of cap space, 5 starting spots to fill, the 30th pick in the draft, and a pair of 2nd & 3rd rounders each. You really think it's LIKELY (not possible; likely) the overall talent level of the team is trending upwards?

You go on about how this team is in decline when it comes to talent, and you mention Justin Smith. But then your solution is to add another declining DE in Julius Peppers? Not only would his cap number screw us in the short term, but it probably cripples us in the long term. And for what? A guy who had 7.5 sacks last season in a 4-3 defense and who has played at RDE for the last six seasons, coincidentally the same spot as Justin Smith...

You're the one that needs to follow along, this isn't John Madden Football...

Your John Madden cliché is really dumb. Signing a free agent like Julius Peppers is a "John Madden" move? Because teams never sign FAs in the offseason. And you're still not getting it. Julius Peppers being in the twilight of his career has nothing to do with comparing the 2013 49ers to a 2014 49ers team with him on it. They were on different teams! We're comparing Peppers (or Revis) to an empty roster spot.

And listing a few different names isn't saying the Niners SHOULD sign all of them or any of them. It was a list. The point was they need to get significantly better on the D-line or in the secondary if they want to win a SB, and a short-term fling with a guy like those names I mentioned could POSSIBLY do the trick. But there are a bunch of factors. Will Revis get cut or be on the trading block is one of 'em.

 

[sjballer03]

It still amazes me that you can take such a small sample size and make such one sided statements. You are so fixated on the negatives that you literally can't see the positives. Not only that, but you can't even rationalize the circumstances of him coming out of college with no real background in playing in an NFL style offense, or the fact that his current offensive coordinator has his own issues on how to put together a decent passing attack...

The recent Kap hate around here is funny to me. We all liked Kap for past few years, and it seemed like the rest of the fans hated him. After the Seahawks' game, things got flipped around here. Now you got Niners posters whining about his lack of growth, while the rest of SportsHoopla (even Seahawks posters) were fairly impressed with his performance and expect him to grow.

 

[-AC-]

It's rare (extremely rare) for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round picks or UDFAs to emerge as all-pro' caliber players.



19th pick overall. As a safety. That's kind of like the safety equivalent of a top 5 pick.



You know what's not rare at all? Teams making it to the Super Bowl and being FAR less talented 2 years later. Ask yourself this question and don't answer with what MIGHT occur; go by what usually happens. The Niners have like 8 million dollars of cap space, 5 starting spots to fill, the 30th pick in the draft, and a pair of 2nd & 3rd rounders each. You really think it's LIKELY (not possible; likely) the overall talent level of the team is trending upwards?



Your John Madden cliché is really dumb. Signing a free agent like Julius Peppers is a "John Madden" move? Because teams never sign FAs in the offseason. And you're still not getting it. Julius Peppers being in the twilight of his career has nothing to do with comparing the 2013 49ers to a 2014 49ers team with him on it. They were on different teams! We're comparing Peppers (or Revis) to an empty roster spot.

And listing a few different names isn't saying the Niners SHOULD sign all of them or any of them. It was a list. The point was they need to get significantly better on the D-line or in the secondary if they want to win a SB, and a short-term fling with a guy like those names I mentioned could POSSIBLY do the trick. But there are a bunch of factors. Will Revis get cut or be on the trading block is one of 'em.

And you're still not getting it... How many All-Pro's did Seattle have on their roster? How many All-Pro's did Baltimore have on their roster (current All-Pro's, not guys still trying to live up to that billing IE: Lewis and Reed)... This team needs solid contributers to help the TEAM, not high priced FA's who will screw the cap up. This team has plenty of homegrown talent that most teams would only dream of having...

And whenever someone advocates bringing in a high priced FA with hopes of grandeur, all the while forgetting about partially forfeiting their own roster (see the 49ers upcoming FA's), then yes, it is Madden esque...

 

[NinerSickness]

It still amazes me that you can take such a small sample size and make such one sided statements. You are so fixated on the negatives that you literally can't see the positives.

I know exactly what his positives are. When he has a lot of time to throw he can get it anywhere on the field on a rope. He's maybe the best running QB in the league. He can throw an out as well as anyone in the NFL. His receivers don't need to be open by a huge margin 'cause the ball gets there so fast.

That said he's football retarded, and he's made zero progress on the mistakes he's constantly made over the course of his career. He has atrocious pocket awareness. He's not good at eluding pressure without tucking the ball and running. He's terrible at reading a defense once the ball has been snapped. He can't think fast enough to go through his progressions. Dilfer was right: he's a 1-read QB. That's not exactly a rare thing to find in the NFL.

 

[NinerSickness]

And you're still not getting it... How many All-Pro's did Seattle have on their roster? How many All-Pro's did Baltimore have on their roster (current All-Pro's, not guys still trying to live up to that billing IE: Lewis and Reed)... This team needs solid contributers to help the TEAM, not high priced FA's who will screw the cap up.

They need a shut-down CB. Screw "contributors" VS high-priced FAs; I don't care how they get it. They need a shut-down CB or a pass rush so good that average CBs will look like shut-down guys. I'd prefer the CB though because I have a ton of faith in Carradine & Lemonier. They could use one more D-lineman though. Maybe Red Bryant. Or Stephon Tuitt. Or Dominique Easley.

Or yeah even Julius Peppers if he'd sign for 1 season. He's not going to get the kind of money he used to.

 

[jarrod49]

They need a shut-down CB. Screw "contributors" VS high-priced FAs; I don't care how they get it. They need a shut-down CB or a pass rush so good that average CBs will look like shut-down guys. I'd prefer the CB though because I have a ton of faith in Carradine & Lemonier. They could use one more D-lineman though. Maybe Red Bryant. Or Stephon Tuitt. Or Dominique Easley.

Or yeah even Julius Peppers if he'd sign for 1 season. He's not going to get the kind of money he used to.

You still don't get it, in order to get a "shut down" corner in FA you are going to break the bank. Then we don't have the money to resign Boldin, Dixon, a new center, Dawson, Whitner or brown!
So you want one guy who may or may not be able to be a shut down corner on this team over resigning several guys who are key to our team???

 

[TobyTyler]

It's rare (extremely rare) for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round picks or UDFAs to emerge as all-pro' caliber players.

Not if you play for the Seahawks, it seems.

 

[dreday]

Football Retarded! ! That was funny SickNess. & TT is right Seattle finds those guys. So when will we start.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Aldon's been working on coverage for 3 seasons now! He knows what he's doing. It's a matter of maintaining his already MVP-caliber play at this point. Expecting him to keep getting better is absolutely ludicrous. Some players peak at an early point in their careers. Aldon is one of those players.

Expecting Aldon to keep getting better is as dumb as expecting JJ Watt to keep getting better. They've both peaked.

Does he? To the point that he's not getting any better? I just don't understand this perspective. Most CBs enter the league having worked on coverage for a decade, but are still improving.

Even if we're limiting this discussion to pass rushing, Aldon should still be improving. He should still be refining his technique, improving his leverage, his pass rush repertoire, his ability to split double teams, etc. I don't see any reason to believe that any 24-year-old would have peaked after two-and-a-half years in the league. The same goes for Watt, IMO.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

And even if our comparison point is the last game this team played, rather than the entire season, you're talking about a team that came within one or two plays from beating the league champions, in the most hostile road environment in the league. That's despite the young starting QB suffering a 4th quarter meltdown, and losing two pro bowlers during the game. Even if we're slightly worse next year, we're still in serious contention without adding a pricey, short-term piece. And if we hold off from doing that, we'll be able to retain one or two younger, homegrown talents.

 

[NinerSickness]

You still don't get it, in order to get a "shut down" corner in FA you are going to break the bank. Then we don't have the money to resign Boldin, Dixon, a new center, Dawson, Whitner or brown!
So you want one guy who may or may not be able to be a shut down corner on this team over resigning several guys who are key to our team???

I don't want the Niners to sign Brown anyway. And especially not Whitner. And they're going to cut Rogers. Gore isn't even guaranteed to make the team at his salary. It's necessary that some positions are going to have to be filled with rookies and / or young players on the roster. This is true of every team. But if there's a chance to fill one of the roster holes with a #1 CB, despite being expensive, they should do it. They need to build a dominant defense in order to make up for Kaepernick's inadequacies.

 

[Jikkle]

And even if our comparison point is the last game this team played, rather than the entire season, you're talking about a team that came within one or two plays from beating the league champions, in the most hostile road environment in the league. That's despite the young starting QB suffering a 4th quarter meltdown, and losing two pro bowlers during the game. Even if we're slightly worse next year, we're still in serious contention without adding a pricey, short-term piece. And if we hold off from doing that, we'll be able to retain one or two younger, homegrown talents.

To add Seattle was our 4th straight road game which had a stretch of easily 3 of the Top 5 defenses in the league (Seahawks, Cards, Panthers) and a terribly cold game against the Pack while the Seahawks were on their 4th straight home game that included a bye week.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I think its your stubbornness to acknowledge that players will get better that ruins your argument. As players get older and start to slow down, others get better in off season workouts, training camp and the pre-season...

You also have to factor in additions to the team...

Consider Goldson leaving last season, not many thought they would be better off at the position, at least in the short term. Or Alex Boone being inserted into the lineup out of no where. Or a young some what unknown NaVarro Bowman taking over for the aging Takeo Spikes. Who's to say Tank Carradine won't be able to do the same as Bowman did? Or that Gore won't be ousted for Lattimore in the near future?

Yep. Young players who have been exclusively backups and STs players step into starting roles and can surprise. You cite some great examples with Reid, Boone, and Bowman. Heck, even Brock might fit into this conversation, as he came in and outplayed Rogers down the stretch. Other than the WR position, this team has shown an ability to develop talent.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Trolling? You can do better than that. I'm a grown up. I don't get my kicks from saying inflamatory stuff to people I don't know just for the sake of it; I talk football. I stay objective. I'm not a homer.

What exactly did I say a long, long time ago (or recently?) that seemed to piss you off so badly? I'm seriously asking because you've been strangely hostile of late.

If a young safety is already one of the 5 best safeties in the NFL (which Reid already is), there aren't many more rungs left on that ladder. I ACKNOWLEGED HE WILL PROBABLY GET BETTER! Where the hell did you get "zero room for improvement?" But every player eventually peaks at some point, and the ones who play at a pro bowl level as rookies usually peak around their rookie or 2nd year (like Aldon Smith, JJ Watt & Von Miller did).

I mean, it's Imac. He's always hostile. Or at the very least surly.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

It's rare (extremely rare) for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round picks or UDFAs to emerge as all-pro' caliber players.



19th pick overall. As a safety. That's kind of like the safety equivalent of a top 5 pick.



You know what's not rare at all? Teams making it to the Super Bowl and being FAR less talented 2 years later. Ask yourself this question and don't answer with what MIGHT occur; go by what usually happens. The Niners have like 8 million dollars of cap space, 5 starting spots to fill, the 30th pick in the draft, and a pair of 2nd & 3rd rounders each. You really think it's LIKELY (not possible; likely) the overall talent level of the team is trending upwards?



Your John Madden cliché is really dumb. Signing a free agent like Julius Peppers is a "John Madden" move? Because teams never sign FAs in the offseason. And you're still not getting it. Julius Peppers being in the twilight of his career has nothing to do with comparing the 2013 49ers to a 2014 49ers team with him on it. They were on different teams! We're comparing Peppers (or Revis) to an empty roster spot.

And listing a few different names isn't saying the Niners SHOULD sign all of them or any of them. It was a list. The point was they need to get significantly better on the D-line or in the secondary if they want to win a SB, and a short-term fling with a guy like those names I mentioned could POSSIBLY do the trick. But there are a bunch of factors. Will Revis get cut or be on the trading block is one of 'em.

We're hardly comparing Peppers to an empty roster spot. Where does he play? Does he move J. Smith, McDonald, Aldon, or Brooks to the bench? Is he markedly better than one of those guys at this point?