Niners need a hired gun on defense

[-AC-]

I think Baalke is content stocking the roster with draft picks and cheap FA's...

In theory it sounds great for long term success. But the only way to fully maximize what he is doing, is to have a top-notch scouting department and hitting on his targets...

I don't think you can necessarily say that the roster is in decline. Until we know what type of potential the players have waiting in the wings (Carridine, Lattimore, Looney, Kilgore, Etc.) its really unfair to make such claims. Sure, if they all prove to be busts then you can say the roster might be in decline, or leaning toward that direction. But should they pan out with any reasonable success, you can also make the argument that this roster is just fine and set up for many years to come...

 

[NinerSickness]

. But should they pan out with any reasonable success, you can also make the argument that this roster is just fine and set up for many years to come...

The thing is: "just fine" isn't necessarily enough to beat the NFL's best up-and-coming teams.

 

[-AC-]

The thing is: "just fine" isn't necessarily enough to beat the NFL's best up-and-coming teams.

When I say just fine, I'm talking about the group as a whole. I will assume that out of Carridine, Lattimore and Looney (using them as examples) one will play at a high level, one will play at a mediocre/solid level, and one will play at a low level and probably won't be around long. The way Baalke stocks up draft picks, I can see him using this method to work more in his favor than not...

 

[Crimsoncrew]

He's really not. You're fooling yourself if you think 2014 Aldon Smith is going to be better than 2012 Aldon Smith and 2013 Aldon Smith (when he was playing of course). This is homer / optimism talk. It's borderline Raider talk.



You know what? I'll concede that there's a slight chance 2014 Dorsey > 2013 Dorsey. Especially 'cause he's in a contract year. I'd like the Niners to give him an extension (along with Culliver), but we'll see. But even if there's improvement I don't think it's going to be significant.

A few thoughts. First and foremost, Aldon Smith is a 24-year-old player with elite physical ability who is still learning the nuances of playing OLB. Of course he is improving, particularly over a year that was full of off-field distractions. I just don't understand how you can think otherwise.

As for Dorsey, he will certainly be better to start this next year than he was at the start of the past year, when we dropped at least one game we probably should have won. And again, next year we should be able to rotate Williams in, making each player more effective when on the field.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Nobody has really made a good argument to say the OVERALL (non-QB) talent on the team in 2014 is trending upwards.

And you haven't made a good argument that the talent is falling off so sharply that we need to do anything and everything to get an older, high-priced FA on a one or two-year deal.

It's frankly somewhat unrealistic that, outside of the QB position, the Niners will be better than they were this past year or the year before. That's because they were probably the most talented team in the league during that span. However, the Niners had six picks in the first four rounds last year who are not close to peaking, and stand to have another six or seven picks in that span this year. I personally don't agree with your sky-is-falling theory, but I guess we'll find out over the next few years.

 

[NinerSickness]

A few thoughts. First and foremost, Aldon Smith is a 24-year-old player with elite physical ability who is still learning the nuances of playing OLB. Of course he is improving, particularly over a year that was full of off-field distractions. I just don't understand how you can think otherwise.

His level of play peaked again by the time the playoffs rolled around. If he breaks the sack record & gets defensive player of the year I'll eat my words, but realistically what you saw in the playoffs from him is what you're going to get on average.

And you haven't made a good argument that the talent is falling off so sharply that we need to do anything and everything to get an older, high-priced FA on a one or two-year deal.

Of course they don't "need" to get a big-name player for the defense; anything can happen in the NFL. Some other team like Seattle could lose a big-name player to injury and effectively make it like the equivalent of the Niners signing one. But I don't think the defense has enough talent on it to put the team in a position to have a good shot at a Lombardi.

 

[Dodub]

A few thoughts. First and foremost, Aldon Smith is a 24-year-old player with elite physical ability who is still learning the nuances of playing OLB. Of course he is improving, particularly over a year that was full of off-field distractions. I just don't understand how you can think otherwise.

As for Dorsey, he will certainly be better to start this next year than he was at the start of the past year, when we dropped at least one game we probably should have won. And again, next year we should be able to rotate Williams in, making each player more effective when on the field.

Couldn't agree more, to say that he won't progress any more is just silly as there are areas of his game that he continues to work on (coverage). Once again, Crims puts it down.

 

[NinerSickness]

Couldn't agree more, to say that he won't progress any more is just silly as there are areas of his game that he continues to work on (coverage). Once again, Crims puts it down.

Aldon's been working on coverage for 3 seasons now! He knows what he's doing. It's a matter of maintaining his already MVP-caliber play at this point. Expecting him to keep getting better is absolutely ludicrous. Some players peak at an early point in their careers. Aldon is one of those players.

Expecting Aldon to keep getting better is as dumb as expecting JJ Watt to keep getting better. They've both peaked.

 

[-AC-]

Aldon's been working on coverage for 3 seasons now! He knows what he's doing. It's a matter of maintaining his already MVP-caliber play at this point. Expecting him to keep getting better is absolutely ludicrous. Some players peak at an early point in their careers. Aldon is one of those players.

Expecting Aldon to keep getting better is as dumb as expecting JJ Watt to keep getting better. They've both peaked.

I think what others are pointing to, is he will get better as a well rounded player. His first couple seasons he has been some what one dimensional, a pass rushing extrodinaire. And even going back to when Justin Smith was injured, Aldon's pass rushing skills obviously didn't look as strong after that either...

He has kind of been living off his god given talent thus far. Although he has been improving in all aspects of his game, there is room for him to get better in all phases and become a better overall player...

 

[Dodub]

Aldon's been working on coverage for 3 seasons now! He knows what he's doing. It's a matter of maintaining his already MVP-caliber play at this point. Expecting him to keep getting better is absolutely ludicrous. Some players peak at an early point in their careers. Aldon is one of those players.

Expecting Aldon to keep getting better is as dumb as expecting JJ Watt to keep getting better. They've both peaked.

Once again, your opinion but I disagree. Aldon has a lot of work to do in coverage and with his abilities, he has a long way that he can go still. Switching positions is very hard especially switching from being a pass rusher to being expected to cover NFL route runners.

Aldon Smith and JJ Watt play different positions, if JJ Watt was asked to drop back into coverage then I would say that he could still get better but he's not.

 

[imac_21]

Nobody has really made a good argument to say the OVERALL (non-QB) talent on the team in 2014 is trending upwards.

In that same vein, you haven't made a good argument it's trending downward. You disagree with the direction the talent on the team is trending. You offer no empirical evidence to support this, just that the old players are trending down, and the young players are stagnant.

You disagreeing with someone's statement doesn't mean you're making a good argument. Your argument, from the perspective of logic, is exactly the same as those being presented against you.

It could easily be argued that your argument is worse than that of everyone else because you have chosen to ignore Kaepernick. CK7 is one player I think all would agree is improving, and he plays the position that most impact the OVERALL talent OF (not on, but of) the team. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Improvement from the QB position leads to improvement from the rest of the offense as well.

Unless you're under the impression that Michael Crabtree suddenly figured out how to be an impact WR at the exact time we were forced to change QBs.

Improvement from Kaepernick will reverberate throughout the team.

I don't understand why you exclude Kaep either. You gave your BS reason in an earlier post, but it was simply that you didn't want to start a debate about him. Convenient to ignore a player who is (should be) improving at such an integral position. You might as well argue that the Cardinals are better than us if you aren't going to count Kaepernick. They probably are if we put Colt McCoy at QB.

 

[NinerSickness]

In that same vein, you haven't made a good argument it's trending downward. You disagree with the direction the talent on the team is trending. You offer no empirical evidence to support this

I need empirical evidence to argue a trend? It's a trend not the 5-day Dow Jones Industrial chart. I made an argument based on already-old players getting older and an ACL / MCL tear. And promoting a backup to a starter. Those are pretty reasonable arguments.

And I omitted the QB position because I don't want to turn this into another Kaepernick thread. There are plenty of those already. That's a BS reason? The easiest way to change the subject on a football forum is to argue about QBs. You should know this by now.

You argue Kaepernick "should be" improving. I don't agree with that. Why? Check one of the 5 other threads about it.

 

[-AC-]

I need empirical evidence to argue a trend? It's a trend not the 5-day Dow Jones Industrial chart. I made an argument based on already-old players getting older and an ACL / MCL tear. And promoting a backup to a starter. Those are pretty reasonable arguments.

And I omitted the QB position because I don't want to turn this into another Kaepernick thread. There are plenty of those already. That's a BS reason? The easiest way to change the subject on a football forum is to argue about QBs. You should know this by now.

You argue Kaepernick "should be" improving. I don't agree with that. Why? Check one of the 5 other threads about it.

I think its your stubbornness to acknowledge that players will get better that ruins your argument. As players get older and start to slow down, others get better in off season workouts, training camp and the pre-season...

You also have to factor in additions to the team...

Consider Goldson leaving last season, not many thought they would be better off at the position, at least in the short term. Or Alex Boone being inserted into the lineup out of no where. Or a young some what unknown NaVarro Bowman taking over for the aging Takeo Spikes. Who's to say Tank Carradine won't be able to do the same as Bowman did? Or that Gore won't be ousted for Lattimore in the near future?

 

[imac_21]

I need empirical evidence to argue a trend? It's a trend not the 5-day Dow Jones Industrial chart. I made an argument based on already-old players getting older and an ACL / MCL tear. And promoting a backup to a starter. Those are pretty reasonable arguments.

And I omitted the QB position because I don't want to turn this into another Kaepernick thread. There are plenty of those already. That's a BS reason? The easiest way to change the subject on a football forum is to argue about QBs. You should know this by now.

You argue Kaepernick "should be" improving. I don't agree with that. Why? Check one of the 5 other threads about it.

And yet you denied the trend that young players get better.

Yes, when you're talking about the quality of a team as a whole, any reason you give to omit the most important position is BS.

You don't think Kaepernick should be improving? You think he's peaked after three years in the league? That would follow the trend you've established for Aldon. Afterall, since Aldon is a beast of a pass rusher, and has been learning coverage technique, he can't continue to improve after 3 years. I supposed we could say the same for Kap and going through progressions/reading defenses.

I guess Kap is as good as he will get.

It's too bad that we have put together a team that only has ONE player improving of the 22 starters.

Is it reasonable to think Brock will improve next year?

 

[imac_21]

Also, this idea that only the starters matter is ridiculous. Does improvement from Patton and McDonald not help the team overall? What about Carradine, TJE and Dobbs?

 

[NinerSickness]

I think its your stubbornness to acknowledge that players will get better that ruins your argument. As players get older and start to slow down, others get better in off season workouts, training camp and the pre-season...

Which players??? The best arguments I've heard were for Crabtree & Reid, and even they probably won't improve all that much. Reid doesn't have a ton of room for improvement anyway; he's already one of the best safeties in the NFC. Possibly Dorsey, but the improvement will probably be minimal. That's 2, maybe 3 positions. There were 5 starters who won't even be under contract soon (Boldin, Brown, Rogers, Goodwin & Whitner). Not to mention already-old players getting older & Bowman's injury.

Who's to say Tank Carradine won't be able to do the same as Bowman did? Or that Gore won't be ousted for Lattimore in the near future?

There's a big difference between "who's to say it won't happen" and it's likely to happen. I was the biggest Carradine fan on this forum last offseason; Lemonier too. And Lattimore could be great. But they're depth players at this point.

 

[imac_21]

Which players??? The best arguments I've heard were for Crabtree & Reid, and even they probably won't improve all that much. Reid doesn't have a ton of room for improvement anyway; he's already one of the best safeties in the NFC. Possibly Dorsey, but the improvement will probably be minimal. That's 2, maybe 3 positions. There were 5 starters who won't even be under contract soon (Boldin, Brown, Rogers, Goodwin & Whitner). Not to mention already-old players getting older & Bowman's injury.



There's a big difference between "who's to say it won't happen" and it's likely to happen. I was the biggest Carradine fan on this forum last offseason; Lemonier too. And Lattimore could be great. But they're depth players at this point.

It's statements like "Reid doesn't have much room for improvement" that make it seem like you're simply trolling. When you talk about a player maxing out after one season, and potentially having zero room for improvement when he is barely 22 years old, it's hard to take other points you make seriously.

 

[NinerSickness]

It's statements like "Reid doesn't have much room for improvement" that make it seem like you're simply trolling. When you talk about a player maxing out after one season, and potentially having zero room for improvement when he is barely 22 years old, it's hard to take other points you make seriously.

Trolling? You can do better than that. I'm a grown up. I don't get my kicks from saying inflamatory stuff to people I don't know just for the sake of it; I talk football. I stay objective. I'm not a homer.

What exactly did I say a long, long time ago (or recently?) that seemed to piss you off so badly? I'm seriously asking because you've been strangely hostile of late.

If a young safety is already one of the 5 best safeties in the NFL (which Reid already is), there aren't many more rungs left on that ladder. I ACKNOWLEGED HE WILL PROBABLY GET BETTER! Where the hell did you get "zero room for improvement?" But every player eventually peaks at some point, and the ones who play at a pro bowl level as rookies usually peak around their rookie or 2nd year (like Aldon Smith, JJ Watt & Von Miller did).

 

[imac_21]

Trolling? You can do better than that. I'm a grown up. I don't get my kicks from saying inflamatory stuff to people I don't know just for the sake of it; I talk football. I stay objective. I'm not a homer.

What exactly did I say a long, long time ago (or recently?) that seemed to piss you off so badly? I'm seriously asking because you've been strangely hostile of late.

If a young safety is already one of the 5 best safeties in the NFL (which Reid already is), there aren't many more rungs left on that ladder. I ACKNOWLEGED HE WILL PROBABLY GET BETTER! Where the hell did you get "zero room for improvement?" But every player eventually peaks at some point, and the ones who play at a pro bowl level as rookies usually peak around their rookie or 2nd year (like Aldon Smith, JJ Watt & Von Miller did).

I've been hostile as of late? I've hardly posted as of late. You've stated that a rookie, 19 games into his NFL career, is as good as he will ever get. That doesn't seem like an inflammatory statement just to ruffle feathers? Come on now.

 

[-AC-]

Which players??? The best arguments I've heard were for Crabtree & Reid, and even they probably won't improve all that much. Reid doesn't have a ton of room for improvement anyway; he's already one of the best safeties in the NFC. Possibly Dorsey, but the improvement will probably be minimal. That's 2, maybe 3 positions. There were 5 starters who won't even be under contract soon (Boldin, Brown, Rogers, Goodwin & Whitner). Not to mention already-old players getting older & Bowman's injury.



There's a big difference between "who's to say it won't happen" and it's likely to happen. I was the biggest Carradine fan on this forum last offseason; Lemonier too. And Lattimore could be great. But they're depth players at this point.

I named off key examples in Bowman and Boone who were both low key players until they actually got some playing time. You underestimate on-field experience severely. I'm not going to play the 'who then' game with you and go through every player on the roster. Every season someone emerges as being significantly better from the season before. Anthony Davis has made big steps in improvement, Bruce Miller went from being an undersized DE to being a very good FB, Tremane Brock went from being the 5th CB in the rotation to getting a new contract and being an adequate starter. Ian Williams went from being training camp filler to opening day starter in one season...

You never know who might emerge next season. For all you know, Quinton Dial could be the guy that makes the next jump...

Further more, you are advocating adding a high priced FA or "hired gun" who are clearly in decline themselves (outside of Clowney) to bolster this aging and declining roster. Your arguments make little sense. It's not being a "homer" just because others would rather look at the big picture instead of being fixated on their own opinion...