NHL #1 Defenseman

[Abe Vigoda]

We see guys like Subban skate out of position to make a big hit and the puck ends up in the back of his net. We see guys like Karlsson skate into empty space looking for an offensive rush and the puck ends up in the back of his net. Those are the guys who often end up with a minus +/-.

Then guys like Keith and Suter are almost never out of position defensively and very often make the correct read, consistently post huge plus numbers.

Bingo! right here in two paragraphs.
If I may, I also would like to add, the minutes being played by guys like MacD and Doughty (using the PO's as an example). Thrown out there in practically every situation; even, SH, and PP. Doughty was ridiculous at certain points, literally sitting down for maybe 30 seconds.

 

[pixburgher66]

terrible mistake. You cant even compare the two.

I think that's debatable. I voted for Doughty, still think he's better. PK brings a bit more flare, doesn't make him better though.

 

[Comeds]

I think that's debatable. I voted for Doughty, still think he's better. PK brings a bit more flare, doesn't make him better though.

I do too. I voted for Doughty too because I think he is the best right now. Not because I fault more offensively minded type players. To me they just play a different style, I don't think reflects upon them negatively. Just like I dont think the best defensemen is automatically the one with the most points.

 

[pixburgher66]

I do too. I voted for Doughty too because I think he is the best right now. Not because I fault more offensively minded type players. To me they just play a different style, I don't think reflects upon them negatively. Just like I dont think the best defensemen is automatically the one with the most points.

Right. I think Doughty is the best of both worlds in that regard. If I'm gonna pick any Dman in the league, that's what I look for. Karlsson: great offensive numbers, greatly question his defensive choices; meanwhile guys that are pure defense (Rob Scuderi mold) don't have as much value. Drew Doughty is just the perfect mix in the league right now.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I liked Weber until he slammed Zetterberg's head into the corner turnbuckle.

Zetterberg was asking for it by playing for the other team.

 

[Darkstone42]

Ask me next year, and my vote might change. In fact, in probably will. But Chara's still the best all around to me. Doughty is really close, and as Subban matures (it's definitely happening) he'll be right there, too. Impossible to overlook Keith, as well, but Chara's size and strength give him a bit of an edge, I think.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Point taken. And to reiterate, I referenced it as an indicator, not gospel. That indicator is usually pretty consistent with the eyeball test.

We see guys like Subban skate out of position to make a big hit and the puck ends up in the back of his net. We see guys like Karlsson skate into empty space looking for an offensive rush and the puck ends up in the back of his net. Those are the guys who often end up with a minus +/-.

Then guys like Keith and Suter are almost never out of position defensively and very often make the correct read, consistently post huge plus numbers.

I think the problem with the eyeball test with defensemen is that it tends to notice (and overvalue) the "big mistake". Like you said, the situations where Subban takes a chance and gives the puck away or misses a hit and the other team scores.

I heard all year that Jake Gardiner was a huge liability defensively. Overhandling the puck and giving it away, supposedly always leading to odd man rushes and goals, while conservative "stay at home" guys like Tim Gleason have to try and cover his ass. But at the end of the year only one Maple Leaf defenseman was on the ice for fewer than 2 goals against per 60 minutes (I believe that three of the 7 were over 3), and it was Jake Gardiner.

The conservative defenseman will sometimes (often?) make a ton of small mistakes, often in his own end, and those mistakes slowly become goals as the team can't move the puck and gets trapped in it's own end. Sometimes a teammate makes the mistake that directly leads to the goal in a situation that wouldn't have happened if not for the defenseman's prior small mistakes. And when that happens the finger tends to get pointed at the teammate instead. It's death by a thousand cuts every time they're on the ice, rather than the fairly rare public beheading when a Subban or a Gardiner is on. But there's more dead bodies the first way.

 

[Darkstone42]

I think the problem with the eyeball test with defensemen is that it tends to notice (and overvalue) the "big mistake". Like you said, the situations where Subban takes a chance and gives the puck away or misses a hit and the other team scores.

I heard all year that Jake Gardiner was a huge liability defensively. Overhandling the puck and giving it away, supposedly always leading to odd man rushes and goals, while conservative "stay at home" guys like Tim Gleason have to try and cover his ass. But at the end of the year only one Maple Leaf defenseman was on the ice for fewer than 2 goals against per 60 minutes (I believe that three of the 7 were over 3), and it was Jake Gardiner.

The conservative defenseman will sometimes (often?) make a ton of small mistakes, often in his own end, and those mistakes slowly become goals as the team can't move the puck and gets trapped in it's own end. Sometimes a teammate makes the mistake that directly leads to the goal in a situation that wouldn't have happened if not for the defenseman's prior small mistakes. And when that happens the finger tends to get pointed at the teammate instead. It's death by a thousand cuts every time they're on the ice, rather than the fairly rare public beheading when a Subban or a Gardiner is on. But there's more dead bodies the first way.

So, were you thinking about Rob Scuderi while writing this post? He made a "small mistake" every time the puck was in his general vicinity last season.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Right. I think Doughty is the best of both worlds in that regard. If I'm gonna pick any Dman in the league, that's what I look for. Karlsson: great offensive numbers, greatly question his defensive choices; meanwhile guys that are pure defense (Rob Scuderi mold) don't have as much value. Drew Doughty is just the perfect mix in the league right now.

 

[Darkstone42]

LABEL YOUR AXES!

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Right. I think Doughty is the best of both worlds in that regard. If I'm gonna pick any Dman in the league, that's what I look for. Karlsson: great offensive numbers, greatly question his defensive choices; meanwhile guys that are pure defense (Rob Scuderi mold) don't have as much value. Drew Doughty is just the perfect mix in the league right now.

maybe she meant he was fungus

 

[DragonfromTO]

LABEL YOUR AXES!

Y is Corsi.

If you can't guess what X is, I'm not sure how you've been using a computer all this time

 

[DragonfromTO]

maybe she meant he was fungus

I think that she just meant that he doesn't score, so he must be a "defensive defenseman". Even if he's not actually good at it.

 

[Darkstone42]

Y is Corsi.

If you can't guess what X is, I'm not sure how you've been using a computer all this time

Corsi was my guess. And this basically says Scuderi is not valuable, yes?

And even when the axis is obvious, it's always good practice to label it. But yeah, I figured "x" out. It was pineapples eaten by fans in the stands, right?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Corsi was my guess. And this basically says Scuderi is not valuable, yes?

And even when the axis is obvious, it's always good practice to label it. But yeah, I figured "x" out. It was pineapples eaten by fans in the stands, right?

I wouldn't say that it says that definitively, but it says that the Penguins have consistently had a much better shot attempt differential when he's been on the bench than when he's been on the ice.

Not my graph, it's just linked from Tyler Dellow. So take it up with him

 

[pixburgher66]

I meant it as an insult honestly. And old Scuderi. There aren't a ton of stud defensive only Dmen anymore, and all I could think of was him and Orpik. Hah.

 

[Darkstone42]

I wouldn't say that it says that definitively, but it says that the Penguins have consistently had a much better shot attempt differential when he's been on the bench than when he's been on the ice.

Not my graph, it's just linked from Tyler Dellow. So take it up with him

Don't worry, the eyeball test makes it definitive.

 

[Darkstone42]

Alright, Dragon, I think I'm going to stop winking back and forth with you.

Eyebrows are the new wink, anyway.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I meant it as an insult honestly. And old Scuderi. There aren't a ton of stud defensive only Dmen anymore, and all I could think of was him and Orpik. Hah.

Yeah I sort of assumed that you just meant "he doesn't create offense"

 

[DragonfromTO]

Alright, Dragon, I think I'm going to stop winking back and forth with you.

Eyebrows are the new wink, anyway.

The wink passes the eyeball test though