NCAA has restored Penn State's eligibility

[nddulac]

This thread is about Penn St., not USC.

I'll stop. But I will admit that I was wrong about Diamond Bar. I thought I had read that somewhere years ago.

I will also agree with you that the cases at USC and Penn State are very different. In the case of Penn State, I have always had mixed feelings about the sanctions and the procedure used in bringing them about. I always thought that need for speed that pushed Emmert to do an end-around of the normal procedure was more a case for speeding up the normal procedure than it was for bypassing it.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'll stop. But I will admit that I was wrong about Diamond Bar. I thought I had read that somewhere years ago.

I will also agree with you that the cases at USC and Penn State are very different. In the case of Penn State, I have always had mixed feelings about the sanctions and the procedure used in bringing them about. I always thought that need for speed that pushed Emmert to do an end-around of the normal procedure was more a case for speeding up the normal procedure than it was for bypassing it.

Yeah and ultimately, my point was the difference between the cases. Don't get me wrong either, USC deserved to be punished. Whether the school knew or not, the violations happened. We just didn't deserve the level of punishment which was double what other programs have received for similar issues.

I agree with you on Penn St. and how the NCAA sped up normal procedures. I don't necessarily have an issue with the NCAA showing up and taking a look around to see if there were any NCAA violations associated with or even outside of the criminal actions and punishing for those. I just don't see where punishing for criminal activity that was already being handled by the legal system was something they needed to get involved in.

 

[podsox]

penn st students out chanting "where's the statue". I guess a good amount still don't understand

 

[pennstatenut]

A good gesture would be to donate any bowl game money to the victims.

One sanction that wasn't lifted... we get no bowl money from the conference pool. Not sure about money paid directly to the University.

 

[TigerBait1971]

One sanction that wasn't lifted... we get no bowl money from the conference pool. Not sure about money paid directly to the University.

how about "any proceeds"?

Call them up Nut, make this shit happen.

 

[pennstatenut]

Penalties by the NCAA have almost always penalized players and coaches that weren't involved. At least players. The system can't move fast enough to do otherwise, and still offer some level of due process.

I think, as with any system of rules and penalties, Penn State had to be penalized. I don't know the details as much as others, but it seemed pretty clear that PSU's coaches and administrators swept horrible, criminal behavior under the rug to protect their athletic and coaching reputations. Assuming that is true, you have penalize the school to set an example, if for no other reason. But, mainly, you have to let people know that a culture where too much emphasis is already put on football can't let priorities get so out of kilter that there is even a question as to what to do when this type of thing arises.

PSU fans are going to argue this action vindicates PSU. That may be true, but everything I've read says it was done because of the actions of the new administration, not because of some new evidence or revelation that everyone involved was innocent. I think the main problem that I have is that PSU fans may not have learned their lesson. If their reaction is one of vindication, not one of being humble and dedicated to making sure that it never happens again, it would seem to me the lesson wasn't learned and it is a shame the penalties have been lifted.

Tell me what fans of any school are dedicated to making sure of this? I live 990 miles away from PSU. I can't go patrol the campus looking for more Jerrys.

 

[fredmccallyRTR]

One thing I keep hearing that is absurd and has came out of many intelligent people's mouths is, 'this is good for the kids, they shouldn't be punished'. Every player at PSU at the time this came down had the opportunity to go somewhere else and every player since knew the circumstances when they went to PSU.

 

[LawDawg]

I disagree. I understand that the NCAA punishes after the fact because, most of the time, by the time they are made aware of violations and complete an investigation, those who committed the violations are long gone. The NCAA has to punish for violations of it's rules, even if it means punishing innocent players and coaches, because they can't risk it becoming a situation where schools get away with stuff as long as they don't get caught, while the one's who committed the violation are there. At least in such cases, a message is sent that the school will be punished regardless of when the violations are uncovered. Unfortunately, this is how it has to be done unless and until they can figure out a way to punish the rule breakers even after they are gone.

In this case, however, these were legal issues and those who committed the acts are/will be punished directly by the courts. The only thing the NCAA has accomplished in this case is punishing innocent players and coaches. The message re: the behavior was/is already being sent via the legal system.

We obviously agree on the first paragraph. As to the second, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care what happens legally, the NCAA had to step in and say that you can't let your culture - the Penn State Way - get to a point where it trumps the school's moral behavior as it appears to have happened here. Moreover, the courts are prosecuting individuals, not the institution. It was the lack of institutional control that needed to be made a clear example.

As to innocent players and coaches, that isn't true. All the coaches and all the players who are being penalized came to PSU knowing the circumstances under which they would coach and play. Even for those who where there when the penalties where first handed down, they were offered amnesty and the ability to go to any other school and play. Those who stayed and came with full knowledge do not sway me in any way.

 

[fredmccallyRTR]

And yes, this could've happened anywhere. But, fact is it happened at PSU.

 

[LawDawg]

Tell me what fans of any school are dedicated to making sure of this? I live 990 miles away from PSU. I can't go patrol the campus looking for more Jerrys.

No one is saying you or anyone else personally is going to police it. But, it does speak to a culture that I would hope now exists at PSU where this can never happen again as good people will speak out. Acting as if you are vindicated and wanting the statue of Jo Pa back doesn't comfort me that the lesson has been learned.

I was at UGa when the Jan Kemp uncovered academic fraud at UGa. I and others were embarrassed, just like a lot of my UNC friends are now. It was later compounded by our hoops coach Herrick who also embarrassed the hell out of us. I think we've learned from those incidents and it is why true UGa fans like Mark Richt, who runs a very clean program, even though we are constantly reminded that we have underperformed.

Pat Forde: Death of Jan Kemp, a college football whistle-blower - ESPN

I would hope that the more influential alumni of PSU will have learned their lesson and will insist on the program being run properly in the future. I seriously doubt you will ever see a PSU coach so revered that he basically has cart blanch on issues he shouldn't.

 

[pennstatenut]

We obviously agree on the first paragraph. As to the second, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care what happens legally, the NCAA had to step in and say that you can't let your culture - the Penn State Way - get to a point where it trumps the school's moral behavior as it appears to have happened here. Moreover, the courts are prosecuting individuals, not the institution. It was the lack of institutional control that needed to be made a clear example.

As to innocent players and coaches, that isn't true. All the coaches and all the players who are being penalized came to PSU knowing the circumstances under which they would coach and play. Even for those who where there when the penalties where first handed down, they were offered amnesty and the ability to go to any other school and play. Those who stayed and came with full knowledge do not sway me in any way.

And here is where you are making it all about football instead of obtaining an education.

 

[LawDawg]

And here is where you are making it all about football instead of obtaining an education.

I am not sure I am following you. I was responding to the fact that players were not penalized ... if they didn't want a bowl ban, they could transfer. That is not a debatable fact. That's a football observation, sure. Likewise, if a player wanted to continue their education at PSU, they weren't penalized for that ... they were entitled to stay and get their degree. So, I don't see where any players who was at the school was penalized as they had all the football and education options they needed.

 

[trojanfan12]

We obviously agree on the first paragraph. As to the second, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care what happens legally, the NCAA had to step in and say that you can't let your culture - the Penn State Way - get to a point where it trumps the school's moral behavior as it appears to have happened here. Moreover, the courts are prosecuting individuals, not the institution. It was the lack of institutional control that needed to be made a clear example.

As to innocent players and coaches, that isn't true. All the coaches and all the players who are being penalized came to PSU knowing the circumstances under which they would coach and play. Even for those who where there when the penalties where first handed down, they were offered amnesty and the ability to go to any other school and play. Those who stayed and came with full knowledge do not sway me in any way.

If lack of institutional control was applicable to Penn St. because of a criminal issue, why then did the NCAA not apply lack of institutional control to Florida when they were having multiple players arrested under Urban Meyer? Why do they not involve themselves in other instances where schools have multiple players arrested for criminal activity? What about when a coach gets arrested? Is that lack of institutional control?

I love the "they chose to stay/sign" argument. Just because they chose to be loyal to the program that recruited them and/or that that they have wanted to play for since they first picked up a football, doesn't mean that they are not innocent. Additionally, there's a whole lot more involved than just simply choosing another school. Especially if they are already there and on the team. It's not like they can simply walk across the street and go to a different school. Choosing a different school could also potentially create a hardship for their family to see them play. Not to mention the desire to stay with the teammates that they had already formed a bond with.

And the above paragraph doesn't even address the fact that another school has to A.) want them and B.) have a scholarship available to offer them.

 

[pennstatenut]

If lack of institutional control was applicable to Penn St. because of a criminal issue, why then did the NCAA not apply lack of institutional control to Florida when they were having multiple players arrested under Urban Meyer? Why do they not involve themselves in other instances where schools have multiple players arrested for criminal activity? What about when a coach gets arrested? Is that lack of institutional control?

I love the "they chose to stay/sign" argument. Just because they chose to be loyal to the program that recruited them and/or that that they have wanted to play for since they first picked up a football, doesn't mean that they are not innocent. Additionally, there's a whole lot more involved than just simply choosing another school. Especially if they are already there and on the team. It's not like they can simply walk across the street and go to a different school. Choosing a different school could also potentially create a hardship for their family to see them play. Not to mention the desire to stay with the teammates that they had already formed a bond with.

And the above paragraph doesn't even address the fact that another school has to A.) want them and B.) have a scholarship available to offer them.

Or C. The curriculum.

 

[LawDawg]

If lack of institutional control was applicable to Penn St. because of a criminal issue, why then did the NCAA not apply lack of institutional control to Florida when they were having multiple players arrested under Urban Meyer? Why do they not involve themselves in other instances where schools have multiple players arrested for criminal activity? What about when a coach gets arrested? Is that lack of institutional control?

I love the "they chose to stay/sign" argument. Just because they chose to be loyal to the program that recruited them and/or that that they have wanted to play for since they first picked up a football, doesn't mean that they are not innocent. Additionally, there's a whole lot more involved than just simply choosing another school. Especially if they are already there and on the team. It's not like they can simply walk across the street and go to a different school. Choosing a different school could also potentially create a hardship for their family to see them play. Not to mention the desire to stay with the teammates that they had already formed a bond with.

And the above paragraph doesn't even address the fact that another school has to A.) want them and B.) have a scholarship available to offer them.

I see the points you are making but don't agree.

 

[4down20]

I just don't see where the NCAA should be involved in criminal matters like this. We have a system in place already for those sorts of things that is way more suited for it.

I feel the NCAA only reacted for the sake of PR.

 

[trojanfan12]

I see the points you are making but don't agree.

No worries. I think we both have good points, just a different view. Part of what makes for interesting discussion.

 

[trojanfan12]

Or C. The curriculum.

That too. The player would likely want to make sure the school they are choosing has a comparable program for the players chosen field of study.

 

[olympicoscar]

This is definitely the right thing to do. Now restore the wins that you took away from Joe Paterno.

 

[bonham]

A good gesture would be to donate any bowl game money to the victims.

That is already being done.

Well, to charities in PA I believe. Not by Penn State's choice, it was part of the sanctions that will remain in effect for the next 2 years.