My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[WiggyRuss]

I agree there is more resources. Not arguing that at all.

What I am disagreeing with is your point that fewer guys slip through the cracks.

Because there are so many guys out there that are damn good. Good enough to hold down a roster spot if given the opportunity.

Again, because there are so many guys that can ply today.

And no, Curry doesn’t make your point.

He only had 3 D1 offers. He came very close to slipping through the cracks.

And he is an all time great player.

EASILY less guys slip through the cracks. To think otherwise is absolutely counter-intuitive.

 

[tlance]

EASILY less guys slip through the cracks. To think otherwise is absolutely counter-intuitive.

This is a stupid argument.

Because there is no way to prove either side.

Completely hypothetical.

Because nobody knows who the players are that slipped through.

And my point is completely valid. You just can’t see any other side but your own.

My argument is every bit as logical as yours. More talent, more players in a much bigger pool. Despite the resources allocated you going to miss a few.

 

[WiggyRuss]

This is a stupid argument.

Because there is no way to prove either side.

Completely hypothetical.

Because nobody knows who the players are that slipped through.

And my point is completely valid. You just can’t see any other side but your own.

My argument is every bit as logical as yours. More talent, more players in a much bigger pool. Despite the resources allocated you going to miss a few.

your argument is not logical at all- its based on absolutely nothing- its against any kind of common sense.

This is as simple as it gets---- I cannot even understand why in the world you would think otherwise---- when you have more resources poured into something- especially when that endeavor is highly competitive and attracts top talent- the better results you are getting to get.

When you have more scouts, better scouts, more coaches, better coaches, more programs that are serious about basketball, more trainers, more support staff- the more likely you are going to be to identify and develop talent--- to think otherwise is simply ridiculous. At this point- you sound like a moron.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

your argument just does not make any sense though.

the total sum of the resources devoted to identifying and coaching talent in the college basketball system is so much better funded and refined then years ago.

to quote you---

"How many guys are out there who we never heard of that were a bad decision away from NBA stardom? Probably quite a few.":

because of the GIGANTIC increase in the infrastructure of the college system- from recruiting to coaching , etc.---- the number of guys that now slip through the cracks is UNDOUBTEDLY much much smaller than it used to be.


Steph Curry is a guy that makes my point probably more than any other- as when Jordan came in to the league - he may not have even been GIVEN an opportunity (less than famous father).

I will say it again

six months in a well funded program

or 4 years In a moderately funded program

The issue isn't funding. It is the cycle we are caught in where these kids HAVE to go pro or fall behind.

 

[tlance]

your argument is not logical at all- its based on absolutely nothing- its against any kind of common sense.

This is as simple as it gets---- I cannot even understand why in the world you would think otherwise---- when you have more resources poured into something- especially when that endeavor is highly competitive and attracts top talent- the better results you are getting to get.

When you have more scouts, better scouts, more coaches, better coaches, more programs that are serious about basketball, more trainers, more support staff- the more likely you are going to be to identify and develop talent--- to think otherwise is simply ridiculous. At this point- you sound like a moron.

All of that is true.

My point is that it is canceled out by the larger talent pool.

Every year guys come out of nowhere and get a cup of coffee in the league and perform well.

Then back to the G league most of them go never to be heard from again.

Many guys competing for those roster spots. Only common sense would dictate that some who would be good enough never get the chance.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

All of that is true.

My point is that it is canceled out by the larger talent pool.

Every year guys come out of nowhere and get a cup of coffee in the league and perform well.

Then back to the G league most of them go never to be heard from again.

Many guys competing for those roster spots. Only common sense would dictate that some who would be good enough never get the chance.

I'm not sure why we are so focused on scouting.


My entire point is a kid gets shoved along or aside at an extremely young age 19/20 whereas before they were 21 to 23 when they hit the league.

what would Scoot be if he spent 3 years in college before he hit the pros...and maybe he's a bad example because he was a lotto pick but as you say...what about the kids that probably could've developed but didn't because they jumped too early or were overlooked because some other raw talent came in.

 

[tlance]

I'm not sure why we are so focused on scouting.


My entire point is a kid gets shoved along or aside at an extremely young age 19/20 whereas before they were 21 to 23 when they hit the league.

what would Scoot be if he spent 3 years in college before he hit the pros...and maybe he's a bad example because he was a lotto pick but as you say...what about the kids that probably could've developed but didn't because they jumped too early or were overlooked because some other raw talent came in.

It is a great example. Kind of like the anti-Curry.

Time will tell if Scoot develops into his talent. He has time for sure.

But take the wrong path and it can have a debilitating effect on player confidence which can in turn negatively impact future performance and development

 

[trojanfan12]

It is a great example. Kind of like the anti-Curry.

Time will tell if Scoot develops into his talent. He has time for sure.

But take the wrong path and it can have a debilitating effect on player confidence which can in turn negatively impact future performance and development

Which brings in something else that backs your point...because there are more good players available, teams don't have to be as patient. If a player doesn't develop into what a team thinks he should within a couple of seasons...they can move on from him and bring in another one.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

It is a great example. Kind of like the anti-Curry.

Time will tell if Scoot develops into his talent. He has time for sure.

But take the wrong path and it can have a debilitating effect on player confidence which can in turn negatively impact future performance and development

For me with NIL...especially with hoops we have a fantastic framework to pay these kids to hone their craft. And yes...we all want them to be in the NBA yesterday but it doesn't seem to bother us when it's obvious a Jadeveon Clowney is ready...or Trevor Lawrence is there...but we know for the health of the NFL it's better they stay the 3 years.

Scoot would be a menace if he came into the NBA after 3 years at Duke or whatever and was able to hone his skills.

I just think everyone is very short sighted as to the opportunity in front of us now with the ability to compensate the athletes.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Which brings in something else that backs your point...because there are more good players available, teams don't have to be as patient. If a player doesn't develop into what a team thinks he should within a couple of seasons...they can move on from him and bring in another one.

this is what's happening. It's crazy when you see kids "done" in the league and they're 25. That's a baby in adult years. Churn and burn. More often than not these kids get there before they should and they take jobs from other guys

it's a vicious cycle.

 

[trojanfan12]

For me with NIL...especially with hoops we have a fantastic framework to pay these kids to hone their craft. And yes...we all want them to be in the NBA yesterday but it doesn't seem to bother us when it's obvious a Jadeveon Clowney is ready...or Trevor Lawrence is there...but we know for the health of the NFL it's better they stay the 3 years.

Scoot would be a menace if he came into the NBA after 3 years at Duke or whatever and was able to hone his skills.

I just think everyone is very short sighted as to the opportunity in front of us now with the ability to compensate the athletes.

Yeah, the 1 and done rule needs to go away. It's hurting both the college game and the NBA, imo. If a kid is ready coming out of high school...fine. If he accepts a scholarship, he should be in school for at least 2 years.

 

[boogiewithstu2007]

MJ is the GOAT, no real debate needed …

 

[dtgold88]

Maybe not worth its own thread but the NBA thread is all over the place

Watched the Warriors win in Chicago (finally!)...the Bulls were creating that very night at halftime a Ring of Honor and putting all the Bulls greats (not just the MJ era) in, some highlights, some were there in person, MJ sent a prerecorded video message. Also they honored the 1995-6 team and guys like Kukoc were there and also of course the other team's coach was on the floor being honored (Kerr). Phil Jackson was there in person, looking sharp but old, did not stand up.

Anyhoo, putting aside that this GOAT debate is literally impossible to 'win', the arguing is the point of it, so here goes

It's the usual better career vs better peak like HOF debates have. MJ at peak level was more dominant over the sport than LeBron has ever been. But MJ can't touch LeBron's sustained excellence for so long.

Got reminded seeing the MJ highlights yet again, you can picture them....the big jump in the air and fist pump vs the Cavs, the 'I'm so sick' game with Pippen helping him like James Brown's hype man (you know the dude who keeps putting the cape on James), the switching hands in midair layup, that final 3, etc. There will never be a force concentrated in dominance like that ever again. Everyone else is too good now to compare, meaning no one star can be THAT far from another now.

And it's hard to imagine some future GOAT contender outlasting LeBron's sustained excellence. Like how could you improve that body and basketball brain in the future? It's sort of the max setting.

Anyhoo, I guess that's all LOL

Have always said the only ones I disagree with in choosing between the 2 are those who think it should not even be a discussion.

 

[dtgold88]

The 3 different teams doesn’t mean anything, nothing, other than he shopped around.

You really believe if the CBA for MJ was like this one there's no chance MJ leaves for a similar offer from NY just to screw Krause?

 

[dtgold88]

If it's one season one title I'm probably going Jordan but it also matters who is on the team.

Lebron fits with pretty much anyone. Jordan and Kobe couldn't have co existed whereas Lebron and Kobe could.

But if we have the same pieces and it's not a second ball dominant guard as my next best player I go MJ slightly.

Those are good comments though think there are likely more reasons other than the #2 being a ball dominant guard you might want Lebron. If the PG just isn't all that good or is ball dominant (but not 2nd best player) I think you want Lebron.

 

[dtgold88]

It isn’t the college game.

It is the globalization of the sport combined with the money available.

That part I for sure agreed with....was also curious how the college game has improved, especially since in MJ's time was a lot more likely to get a kid with 2-4 years of experience in college. Even some really good ones.

 

[trojanfan12]

You really believe if the CBA for MJ was like this one there's no chance MJ leaves for a similar offer from NY just to screw Krause?

Exactly. I always laugh when people say that guys like MJ, Magic, Bird...would never switch teams or try to play together on the same team.

The fact is, we don't know what they would have done because they didn't have the same freedom of movement that players have today.

 

[dtgold88]

Exactly. I always laugh when people say that guys like MJ, Magic, Bird...would never switch teams or try to play together on the same team.

The fact is, we don't know what they would have done because they didn't have the same freedom of movement that players have today.

Not so much the freedom of movement but there were no max deals...teams could offer a lot more than anyone else.

Will say I could see Bird not joining up to win but not so sure I believe it's the same for the others. Especially if they were not winning with other HOFers.

 

[Robotech]

This is a minority view, I'm sure, but I think it's LeBron.

 

[msgkings322]

This is a minority view, I'm sure, but I think it's LeBron.

Much less so lately. As mentioned in the OP there's no definitive answer that can be proven, both are legit.